2004 VW Golf TDI, Castrol 505.01 5w40 at 5kmi

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Wear metals are little high, but I'm not surprised given my driving conditions and the age of the engine. The first ~3000mi on the sample were 80% highway/20% city on Diesel #2, but the last ~2000mi have been 80% city/20% highway using B20 (I got a new job closer to home and started using Biodiesel at about the same time). The car gets to warm up almost all the time (except for quick trips down town, which are rare), and I shift @ 2500-2700rpm when cold and 3000-3200rpm once it's warmed up. TBN looks good, too.
 
I'm not impressed at all by these 505.01 formulations. They shear badly in just 5000 miles and I believe that wear control will be compromised during a 10,000 mile service interval. These oils are barely 40wts to begin with - approx 13.5 Cst - and tend to shear down to 30wts within a few thousand miles.

Hopefully this nonsense will be corrected soon and VW will allow the use of the better CI-4+ rated, 5w-40 formulations from Amsoil, Mobil, Petro Canada, etc...

TS
 
It would seem that the recommended scheduled maintenance intervals at miles' 5000, 10,000, 20,000 mirror/account for these data points.

It would seem the VW 505.01 compliant oils are not as good as some specified and available, a scant one model year before. I am a "non" PD owner (2003 Jetta TDI). I am also a user of Delvac One 5w40 AKA Mobil One 5w40 T & S.

It would also seem like a catch 22 for Mobil One 5w40 as well as a HOST of other VW 505.01 and "BEYOND" oils are available in Europe, but at a more normal cost of 10-15 per quart.

[ May 20, 2005, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]
 
quote:

It would seem the VW 505.01 compliant oils are not as good as some specified and available, a scant one model year before.

One thing to remember is that the PD engine is substantially different from previous TDIs when it comes to lubrication needs. I have a feeling that Delvac and other oils that do very well in VE TDIs would show at least as much, if not more, shearing in a PD as 505.01 oils. Remember the immense pressures on the cam lobes that actuate the injectors. These engines are extremely tough on oil, plain & simple. VW's testing process for lubes for the PD engine include examining the cam lobes for wear on the order of microns--controlling wear is that important.

It would be very interesting to see a UOA from a non-505.01 approved oil in a TDI-PD, but it won't be from my car!
wink.gif
 
Well I think the difference flows from the fact that one is PD vs NON, which I acknowledge in the prior post. But I think VW put a major kibosh on any sort of direct comparison by the dire warning given in the owners manual and the non fulfillment on warranty in case a NON VW spec 505.01 (and beyond)oil is used in a PD TDI. There is a bit of gallows humor and oxymoronic license in this because VW dealers ROUTINELY put in the incorrect oil in PD TDI's. As a matter of fact, they would routinely do that on 2003 TDI's also !! Yet you never hear a peep about failure to fulfill on engine damage as a result of incorrect oil use by dealers.
 
Then, how would a HDEO such as XD-3
0w-30 (HTHS 3.6) or 0W-40 (HTHS 4.2) fare in a (out of warranty) PD TDI compare to a 505.01 Castrol?

Would the engine self destruct in a week?

[ May 20, 2005, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Minou ]
 
The current class of commercial diesel engines from Mack and Cummins have used cam driven, unit injectors, for the past 3-5 years. In fact, specific engine tests - for wear and shear stability - are a key part of the Cummins CES "20078" and Mack "EON-Premium Plus 03" specifications for HDEO's.

There is nothing unique to VW about this requirement....
 
So why is it okay for Cummins or Mack to have unique oil requirements, but VW gets taken to the woodshed for doing it?

I figure that since VW is the one that developed the PD-TDI and has to warranty it, they probably know what they're doing WRT lubrication (note that developing competent lubrication specs and communicating those specs to independently owned and operated dealerships are two seperate issues).
 
Hi,
Tooslick - Ted, your comment follows;
"The current class of commercial diesel engines from Mack and Cummins have used cam driven, unit injectors, for the past 3-5 years. In fact, specific engine tests - for wear and shear stability - are a key part of the Cummins CES "20078" and Mack "EON-Premium Plus 03" specifications for HDEO's."

It needs some comment!

Firstly the "real" diesel valve train wear test came via the Cummins L10 (later superceded by the M11) engine. This wonderful smaller displacement diesel engine had many design and operational flaws. It cost Cummins millions in rectification under Warranty and nearly broke them. One major problem was excessive valve train wear. This happened during the 1980s! The redesigned M11 corrected some Cummins "issues"!
Lubricant technology was just one contributing "issue" here!!!

"Unit" type high cam load injecters were introduced during the 1980s not ".....for the past 3-5 years....." as you have suggested

These injectors - with silicon nitride cam follower rollers - were introduced in the Series 60 Detroits about 1987 - nearly 20 years ago in this instance

The rocker wear pad Cummins M11 (now with EGR) test protocol is part of ACEA's E7 quality rating. It has been part of the API's quality rating for some considerable time

As was pointed out to you recently by somebody else (and me) the OM602A and XUD11BTE valve train (soot related)tests are those relative to the VW engines. VW seems more concerned about piston, ring land, and fire belt area cleanliness than most else. And so they should be as these were the prime problem areas with heavy diesel development in the 1980s and led to the rapid quality standards development up to the latest API CI-4+ levels - in five stages over 15 years!

A year ago I dis-assembled a DD DDEC4 500hp engine at 1m kms where the pads were able to be re-used - virtually unheard of! This was using Delvac 1 5w-40

Short life in this specific wear area is just one tell-tale sign to using an incorrect oil (say a CG instead of a CH-4) and/or using extended OCIs and etc!

Ted your earlier comment;
"I'm not impressed at all by these 505.01 formulations." needs to be qualified!

You may not be impressed but VW are!
Part of their programme is the education or re-education of Dealers and Owners too. Your comments may be construed by the inexperienced BITOG reader as being "absolute" and completely "Gospel"
They are simply your somewhat narrow perspective on the Manufacturer's quality standard requirements

If you have an engine that calls for a specific Manufacturer's Approved and Listed oil - one that meets the VW505.1 quality standard for instance - then it is simply common sense to use it!
Or perhaps one that has been proven to exceed it when out of any Warranty obligations!

Regards
Doug

[ May 20, 2005, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
The current class of commercial diesel engines from Mack and Cummins have used cam driven, unit injectors, for the past 3-5 years. In fact, specific engine tests - for wear and shear stability - are a key part of the Cummins CES "20078" and Mack "EON-Premium Plus 03" specifications for HDEO's.

There is nothing unique to VW about this requirement....


Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 meets or exceed those requirements.

Ditto for XD-3 15W-40.
 
Hi,
I'm sorry I missed a soot related test protocol that is used in the GLD1,2,3 regime (for light diesels) in my earlier post!

This test is part of the JASO M354-1999 regime based on a Mitsubishi 4D34T4 engine. This protocol lasts for 160hrs and involves oils with a 4.5% soot content (the M11 test also runs at 4.5% soot) and others mentioned earlier are measured at up to 6%

All these are what constitutes the soot based valve train wear tests in rating the lubricant for International use

Ted, perhaps some Amsoil products can't handle soot and that is why they thicken out of range! Now, when combined with the M1 0w-40 that thins out (according to you) it may be the perfect oil! One thinning and the other thickening - have we found the "Holy Grail" Ted?
Could we call it AM1soil, or M1amsoil!!
wink.gif


It is always wise to use the Manufacturer's Approved & Listed lubricants until all Warranty obligations have expired

Regards
Doug
cheers.gif
 
Doug,

I was completely open minded about the VW 505.01 spec when it first came out. However after looking at the materials specs and looking at the additive chemistry, it is my NSH opinion that there is absolutely nothing special about these formulations.

The abundance of VW 505.01 formulations in the European market would indicate this is strictly a commodity product. The 505.01 formulations being sold by the smaller companies are in all likelyhood simply re-badged versions of oils made by EOM, BP or Royal Dutch Shell. Do a little investigating and I bet you a cold Fosters this is indeed the case.

If you look at the VW 505.01 formulations, you'll find they all use less expensive, Group III basestocks, and they all use almost identical additive chemistries. (The VW 506.01 formulations follow a similar pattern, only those are all PAO based). So 505.01 is simply a "cake recipe" and not a performance driven spec that can be met with a variety of formulation approaches.
 
Hi,
Tooslick - Ted, we can hypothosise as we shall but the facts are that when a Manufacturer calls up a certain specification it is wise to follow it

I have just visited a local auto parts retailer "autObarn" and noted;

M1 - 10w-30 only for A1/B1 and GM V8s
M1 - 0w-40 A3/B3 GF3 and all VW-Audi, BMW, MB and Porsche Approvals with numbers given
M1 - 5w-50 - almost as for 0w-40

Castrol "R" 5w-30 "Recommended for VW, MB, BMW and Porsche"
Castrol "R" 0w-40 no meaningful data on lable
Castrol "R" 10w-60 no meaningful data on lable

BP Visco 5000 0w-40 A3/B3

This just shows you the complexity for "thinking" buyers who want to follow specifications

A Mobil Rep told me yesterday that he despairs at the level of mis-information that abounds regarding lubricant application

We should not be part of it on BITOG!

Regards
cheers.gif
(Fosters or XXXX)
Doug
 
quote:

Originally posted by Doug Hill
Could we call it AM1soil, or M1amsoil!!
wink.gif


[/QB]

Doug ,I am usually impressed with the info shared in your posts ,but you have outdone yourself this time.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
Ted, perhaps some Amsoil products can't handle soot and that is why they thicken out of range!

Amsoil 15w-40 and 5w-40 worked just fine in my previous 2000 VW TDI. And Amsoil 15w-40 works just fine in my current 1991 VW 1.6D IDI with 250k miles.

You're entitled to your opinions. And there's a chance you may know more than TS on certain subjects. But you could learn to show TS a little more respect and treat him like the man he is over 20 years in the field instead of like a first year college student that's still wet behind the ears.

Now for my opinion on 505.01 oils:

VAG is mainly worried about cam lobe wear. Since a worn cam will alter the fuel injection timing. But at what cost? Does the oil protect the rest of the engine as well? Only time will tell.

VW used to offer a 10 year / 100k mile powertrain waranty. The best factory warranty of any car manufacturer at the time. But now they only offer a 5 year / 60k miles powertrain warranty. I wonder why? Lack of faith in their own cars? Greed? Who knows.
dunno.gif


On a side note, Daimler-Chrysler is dropping the powertrain warranty for the Jeep Liberty CRD (CDI TD) for the 2006 MY. 2005 gets 7 years / 70k miles. 2006 only gets 3 years / 36k miles. And, DC says to use Mobil 1 0w-40 or M1 5w-30. Oils that are only API CF for an engine with an EGR. Why doesn't DC recommend a 5w-40 CI-4 oil, an oil that's actually designed for a diesel engine with an EGR? Or why doesn't DC import the European oil that's used like VW does? If DC wants you to use M1, why not recommend M1 Truck & SUV?

It's all about the all-mighty dollar. Car manufacturers don't care how long their car lasts, just as long as it lasts until the warranty is out. And to cut out expenditures, they're starting to reduce their factory warranties. And they don't want to take the time, or spend the money, to research different ols and see what oil should be used for the best results and longest engine life. It's really sad. New car prices are steadily going UP, while new car reliability is steadily going DOWN.
thumbsdown.gif
 
Hi,
Texas TDI - Ted and I have a healthy relationship which is often covered by off-line e-mails. We loves ya Teddles!

I don't profess to know much really!
I do know however that BITOG will NOT benefit from mis-information or opinion that cannot be substantiated. This is especially so when dealing in specific oils for vehicles under warranty

The Manufacturer know best!

As for the API's CI-4 - this diesel quality classification is really designed for heavy diesels and the Global specs DLD1,2 and 3 are more appropriate. Using a heavy diesel engine oil is NOT always the best idea - especially in certain light diesel engines!

Regards
Doug
 
quote:

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
As for the API's CI-4 - this diesel quality classification is really designed for heavy diesels and the Global specs DLD1,2 and 3 are more appropriate. Using a heavy diesel engine oil is NOT always the best idea - especially in certain light diesel engines!

CI-4 and CI-4 PLUS are the only oil specs for diesels with EGR's. All on-road diesel engines now have to use EGR, light duty and heavy duty. So if you drive a diesel with EGR, CI-4 and CI-4 PLUS are your best choices.
 
Hi,
TexasTDI - I do not agree with this generalised comment:
"CI-4 and CI-4 PLUS are the only oil specs for diesels with EGR's. All on-road diesel engines now have to use EGR, light duty and heavy duty."

This may well be so in the US but I doubt it - if you have the data to support this comment please share it with us. The rest of the world is alive and well too!

It is all a matter of design and manufacturer specification. Euro heavy diesel engine makers using ACEA's standards show variances from as far back as CF-4 and earlier. Mostly they DO NOT call for CI-4 and CI-4+ quality ratings

Euro light diesel engine manufacturers have never specified oils to CI-4 or CI-4+ quality standards to my knowledge

You said this too;
"So if you drive a diesel with EGR, CI-4 and CI-4 PLUS are your best choices"

IMHO this statement needs to be qualified

Please refer to the DLD 1,2 and 3 specifications for light diesel engines

Many Japanese diesel engines specifically exclude
API ratings higher than CF (about)
And CI-4 lubricants should not be used in engines calling for the CI-4+ quality rating

This subject has been well covered in here before and again IMHO the Manufacturer's specifications should be carefully studied and followed whenever possible and certainly when under Warranty

As a matter of interest I think that the API's CG-4/CH-4/CI-4/CI-4+ ratings have proven to be excellent in engines where they are specified. I have used them since about 1991 in the appropriate engine of course

Regards
Doug
 
quote:

Originally posted by TexasTDI:
VW used to offer a 10 year / 100k mile powertrain waranty. The best factory warranty of any car manufacturer at the time. But now they only offer a 5 year / 60k miles powertrain warranty. I wonder why? Lack of faith in their own cars? Greed? Who knows.
dunno.gif


No, it wasn't the best factory warranty at the time. The powertrain portion was 10/100. The comprehensive portion was a pathetic 2 years, 24,000 miles. To keep warranty costs the same, they extended the comprehensive portion to 4 years, 50,000 miles, and reduced powertrain to 5 years, 60,000 miles.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
Hi,
TexasTDI - I do not agree with this generalised comment:
"CI-4 and CI-4 PLUS are the only oil specs for diesels with EGR's. All on-road diesel engines now have to use EGR, light duty and heavy duty."

This may well be so in the US but I doubt it - if you have the data to support this comment please share it with us. The rest of the world is alive and well too!


The data is in the wording of each API certification. Only CI-4 and CI-4 PLUS certs say they are oils designed for diesel engines with EGR systems.
 
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