Aftermarket trans cooler - run it through radiator first?

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Finally getting around to installing a tranny cooler on my Cherokee. I'm trying to decide if I should bypass the stock radiator cooler completely, or use both. What do you guys think? It will definately be alot cooler with just the aftermarket cooler, although it will take longer to get up to operating temperature...
 
No, Their is no reason to run through the rad. cooler first. THis is an OEM method of selling aux. cooler package. If you use the right sized air only cooler and mount it a high air flow area you will be much better off! You would not belive how many transmissions are ruined because cheap OEM heat exchangers int he rad. tank fail. Once they fail you have watter and coolant in the trans. Watter will ruin the friction material on an automatic trans faster then you can belive. It also does not do anything for the rest of the trans.

To be honest unless you are constantly towing heavy loads or doing a lot of high power, high load low speed driveing like rock crawling(all the time) a cooler is more of a liability then anything else. You are far better off to flush your trans and fill with a good Synthetic automotaic trans fluid like Redline or Amsoil!!! If you can get close to 100% synthetic you end up with the same benifits a cooler would bring with out the additonal leak path!

[ June 11, 2004, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
FWIW – GM police cars come with an auxiliary transmission cooler installed after the fluid runs through the radiator cooler.
 
Didn't think I'd ever find myself disagreeing with JBrowning . . .

I prefer the factory routing: in-tank heat exchanger followed by auxilary cooler. (Hemi Cudas and Mopar Police Pursuit Package is the reference).

One, the transmission fluid is slower to warm than the coolant, so this eases chemical problems associated with slow warm-up.

Two, the temperature is stabilized in year-round operation.

Three, a proper auxilary fluid-to-air heat exchanger can be mounted in the path of the main or mechanical fan for cooling improvements at low speeds (under 30 mph; parking maneuvers alone can really heat up a tranny [as can prolonged stop-and-go driving]).

Four, a "stacked-plate" heat exchanger can bypass colder fluid until heat thins it out enough to flow thru the body of the unit.

Finally, the addition of an inline filter after the coolers is a nice piece of insurance. (I'm using MAGNEFINE on p/s and a/t applications now).

As to fluids, of course one should purchase quality, but transmissions live longest with less than 175F temperatures in the sump. No fluid alone will match the benefit of temperature reduction.

The addition of an auxilary cooler is pretty much a guarantee of 150k from the oem unit, IMO, and is the final piece of a regular service program for that very expensive component. Flush at least every 30k (I prefer annually).

Lubricating fluids need to be brought quickly to operating temperature and then NOT allowed to endure temperature/pressure spikes. When enough of those have added up, then it's time to rebuild or replace. Temperature consistency (a narrow range) is the key.

(I have posted both here and on JeepsUnlimited [under "SuzysJ]" the details of this work done on our 2001 Cherokee).

[ June 12, 2004, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: TheTanSedan ]
 
TheTanSedan, I am rather critical of these setups so I expected a lot of heat!
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I have seen these units fail so many times I just can not see useing them unless you have too. If you really have the need for one then fine but to add one just to add one????
The reason OEMs do it is because they already have the worthless one built into the radiator of just about everything with an automatic trans. It is much easier for them to plumb in an additional one as an aux. off of the worthless one already on in the rad. side tank. It would cost them more to design and valadate yet another radiator without it and then put an air only cooler up front. It would also complicate the dealershps ability to easily add the aux. cooler to any customers vechile easily and cheaply.

If the puny worthless heat exchanger/cooler in the rad. tank was worth haveing you would not have to add an additional aux. cooler. The more plumbing you have the more leak paths you have. A hydralic hose or fitting will always fail when it is going to cost you the most! The more plumbing you have on a truck the greater the chance of it getting snagged.

If a cop car breaks down he can call dispatch and he will be rideing home nice and warm in no time! If you are in the middle of death valley your aux. plumbing fails who is going to save you! If you are in Minasota and you spring a leak in the dead of winter on a back road who is going to save you.

Now on the other hand if your truck had no cooler at all and you were driveing through death valley with a trany full of Amsoil I am sure you will be ok. If you are in Minasota and you trans is full of Redline and has no aux plumping to fail again you are just fine!

A lot of the stuff on police cars is really of no practical value to the normal citizen. A lot of police cars have a little metal bracket that prevents downshift to L. This is to keep them from tearing up the trans by missed shift. Stab resistant seats with memory foam is another worthless featyre they have if you are not a cop. Courtey lamp defeat yet another. How about the ability to keep the engine idleing with the key out of the ignition etc........ Just because it is on a cop car does not really mean it is really going to make life better for the daily driver!

You can get most all of the benifits of a cooler by simply putting in a heavily ester based synthetic atf fluid. THe great thing about synthetic is that the benifitt is their if you have a cooler or not. You are not going to creat more potential leak paths buy chageing the fluid. You even add it to the ex-cop car if you like.


Thetansedan, When GM was testing an experimantal esterbased trany fluid at their Arizonia testing area they could not keep the standard fluids temps within limits at all. Under some conditions the fluids went well past 480F. This was useing a trailer towing dyno. It simulates various loads at each speed while being towed up a hill. The hill in this case was bakers pass if my memory is correct. Once they put the all synthetic ester based trany fluid in they could not get it to exceed 231F under the exact same conditions. THe ATF was custom made for this application and is not available to the public at all. So this ester based AT did what the cooler could not do!

It is an SAE paper but I no longer have copy of it at home. If ever I get a slow day at work I will try to look for it!

Note that I am not disagreeing that cooler work and can extend the life of a transmission. I am just pointing out that it is like cosmetic surger. Everytime you do unneeded surgery their is a chance that the complications latter on might out weight the potentialy rewards. The more like a Rube Goldberg device it becomes the likely the outcome will be the best!

[ June 12, 2004, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
You would not belive how many transmissions are ruined because cheap OEM heat exchangers int he rad. tank fail.

I just disected my old radiator because I wanted to see what the tranny cooler looked like. It's just a copper pipe in the radiator tank. The only way it would fail is if it got punctured somehow. My transmission has nearly 200,000 miles on it, filling it with synthetic would be suicide. Not to mention it would cost more than a new low mileage tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by TheTanSedan:
Finally, the addition of an inline filter after the coolers is a nice piece of insurance. (I'm using MAGNEFINE on p/s and a/t applications now).

I plan on using an inline spin on filter. Does it make any difference where it's mounted in the line?

quote:

Originally posted by TheTanSedan:

The addition of an auxilary cooler is pretty much a guarantee of 150k from the oem unit, IMO, and is the final piece of a regular service program for that very expensive component. Flush at least every 30k (I prefer annually).


The AW4 will easily last 200,000 without so much as a fluid change.
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I expect to get at LEAST 3-400k out of mine. I drain the pan at every oil change too.
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Wooohooo! My 1000th post!
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I hear about it all day long. Some of the guys I eat lunch are in the Parts Business at the OEM warehouse level. They see all of the out of warranty parts sales. Officaly these are not tracked but one guy has been doing this for about 6 years. He has kept his own records for years just as a quriosity.

Most are not just a copper pipe. Wow now that is a really effective cooler isn't it! Looks like Jeep hosed all of their owners by giveing them an inferior OEM cooler. Most now are stacked plate design inside the side tank.What normaly happens to most modern ones is that the solder joints will fail.

Lets say your radiator gets punctured or destroyed. If you are not leaking oil or trany fluid you can nurse the vechile home. Drive 1-2 miles shut down and let it cool then repeat. If you lose all of your oil or ATF becase you rad. took a hit then you are out of luck. No way to nurse a vechile with no oil or atf home or to a safe place.

If all you have is a worthless piece of pipe in the radiator why bother includeing it in the loop at all?You have just made my case for me!!! It is a worthless design that can only increase the chance of coolant ingression and is not going to significantly add to the cooling effect why include it??????? It is all risk and no reward. Even if it is only one more piece of tubeing why have that extra piece? A large air only cooler mounted up front will do the job just fine! If it gets punctured their is no way coolant can enteer!

I have found fabing up lines from hydralic hose and steel tubeing works best. This allows you to run the lines in places that steel would be too hard for anyone to hand bend. I like to go from the side of the trans right over the top to the firewall. Follow the fire wall and fender around to front. Fab up brackets and and use alot of zip ties. I use extra hydralic line to insulte any place that their could ever be any contact.
P.S. If you 4Wheel and run a cooler it is smart to fab up a bypass with the aprop. quick conects or fittings . You should make it just long enough so you can crawl under you vechile and disconnect the input and output lines from trans and run the bypass in their place.

If you want to know how often cooler lines fail just go to any GM dealership and ask their techs how many GM vechiles with the 4.3 and an oil cooler have to have their lines replaced repeatedly!!! Both from the block to the remote filter mount and from the mount to the radiator. At one point their was like 64,000 back orders for these line about 4 years ago! The problem, is still their.

Another point. You mentioned that "It would be sucide to change it to synthetic" why? 8 quarts of synthetic would cost less then a good cooler setup. A cheap cooler setup is not worth haveing. If it will last 200,000 miles with no maintence why bother with a cooler at all? Where is the reward for your risk ifit is already more durable then you need?

[ June 12, 2004, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
If you cut that worthless piece of pipe open you will see how it twirls the atf to help disapate heat.

I work at a radiator shop. I see maybe 2-3 faulty intank coolers a year.

Although my boss disagrees w/me. If I add an aftermarket cooler to a customers car he wants it put behind the original intank cooler.

On my personal cars I delete the intank cooler and just run an aftermarket one. The engines run much cooler and the trans fluid stays bright red this way.
 
quote:

If I add an aftermarket cooler to a customers car he wants it put behind the original intank cooler.

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Mounted behind the rad? ..or between the trans and the in tank cooler in line (but mounted out front)??

Aside from reliabliity issues ...the in-tank cooler then to the aux would be the most effective at cooling. The rad coolant temp will never, outside of an overheat condition, be above the ATF temp ..so some of that excess heat will be shunted to the coolant. This should reduce the temp to the aux. cooler. Subsequently the outlet temp, as opposed to just using the aux cooler ..should be lower.
 
quote:

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Most are not just a copper pipe. Wow now that is a really effective cooler isn't it!

Yeah, it's pretty worthless. That's why I'm putting on an extra cooler, along with the fact that I'm going to be towing alot this summer. But again, it is a very strong little thing. I'm not worried in the least about it failing.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
If all you have is a worthless piece of pipe in the radiator why bother includeing it in the loop at all?

Because it will bring the ATF up to operating temperature alot faster. I don't know if this is something that would be good or not, that's why I'm asking.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Another point. You mentioned that "It would be sucide to change it to synthetic" why? 8 quarts of synthetic would cost less then a good cooler setup.

It's gone 200,000 miles on dino oil. The previous owner kept good maintainence, although the ATF was a little burnt when I got it. You are just asking for all kinds of trouble putting synthetic in anything with this much mileage. It's just not good to change what's been working so well for so long. Also I would need alot more than 8 quarts of ATF to completely flush it with synthetic. I would probably need at least $100+ in fluid, and another $100 if I wanted somebody with a machine to actually flush it. I can easily find a low mileage junkyard tranny for $1-200. The AW4 rarely breaks before the body falls apart, so not many people need to buy one, there fore they are cheaper than most other transmissions.
 
quote:

A lot of the stuff on police cars is really of no practical value to the normal citizen. A lot of police cars have a little metal bracket that prevents downshift to L. This is to keep them from tearing up the trans by missed shift. Stab resistant seats with memory foam is another worthless featyre they have if you are not a cop. Courtey lamp defeat yet another. How about the ability to keep the engine idleing with the key out of the ignition etc........ Just because it is on a cop car does not really mean it is really going to make life better for the daily driver!

My point was that the engineers installed the aux cooler that way. Maybe they did it this way because it was easy to do, and maybe they did it to avoid yet another radiator (parts proliferation), I have no way of knowing. If it caused a lot of failures they would have made changes -- count on it. The cops drive their cars a lot harder than most of us ever will -- some might even say they abuse the cars. If there is a weak part, they will find it.
You are right that some of the police equipment is not useful to most of us, but I'll take the aux trans and engine oil coolers, larger lower ball joints, and four wheel disk brakes. Will I ever push the car hard enough to need them? Probably not, but they are nice to have nonetheless.
Terry
 
Again I am all for coolers if you have a need for them. Towing a lot definately qualifys. I am just not keen on water based cooling sytems. The Rad tech. says he see's 2-3 fualty coolers a year. 2-3 fualty coolers a year is 2-3 too many if I am one of the 2-3 you see. An air only cooler elimanates this. If you really do not need it then you can elimanate another leak path and potenial part failure. What is the point of haveing it if you do not need it?

If the Cop car or Taxi needs a larger componet or different material then that tells you that the part was inferior to start with! GM usualy puts the tab on the trans linkage, aux, cooler, silicone hoses, bigger rad., bigger brakes and more agressive pad compaound, bigger ball joints, more durable fuel pump, beefier relays, differnt ECM programiong, limited slip rear carrier, differnt springs adn shocks, pass key/VAts key system delete, idle with key off, courtasey lamp over ride, high output alternator and heavier duty cycle wireing, stab resistan seat back with memory foam cushions, Roll Cage,stiffer anti sway bars and something else. I have had alot of exposure to these vechiles from GM. I have no idea what FOrd offers but I would imagine it is simalar.

I would like some of those items as well. I would not go to the expense or trouble of adding any of them to a vechile that did not have them to begin with unless I had the need for them! I usualy get the towing package as well on my trucks.
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I am not saying that this is the case in this case at all. I see a lot of people that like to bolt junk on to their vechile that is of little value instead of doing seious work to make the vechile perform better. THe price window for about 60% of Bolt-ons is $500. Most bolt-ons promise you 5-15 HP etc. Higher ratio rocker arms,air-filters, cold air kits, ground effect kits, hand held programers, Emmison legal chip sets, monster spoilers, after market lamps with flimsy mounting systems and no relays, tornado induction device, electromagentic fuel atomiser......etc...... I tend to throw realy good items to have in this big list too if you really do not need it.

[ June 12, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
I don't disagree with what you've posted, JBrowning, so much as I believe that this is one item the factory should have on every car (short of a better system to start with; with which I imagine we can agree).

Living in a hot climate, in a large metro area, there is no way that a trans is going to adequately cooled by 200+F radiator tanks; especially in stop-and-go 105F August traffic. As I see it, ANY auxiliary is going to help. And most folks I run into who don't have an auxilary cooler on the trans in a typical front engine/rear drive configured vehicle are having to replace that trans before 150k.

After all, we are only talking about, at most, a few feet of hose and some clamps. Not hard to check, nor to replace; especially if some planning for service and to keep it free of road debris is done AND vibration-related potential problems eliminated.

I would agree with you wholeheartedly if the item in question were an engine oil cooler. That is one which leaves the owner playing with, potentially, fire. It HAS to be justified. My family and I have done this for over thirty-years and it has worked well. The old man finally had to replace the T-400 behind the 454 in his Suburban at 175k, and his earlier 500 Cadillac still didn't need one when sold at 190k. This, while pulling an 8000-lb trailer all over the country.

ZmOz, I installed a B&M Racing Transmission cooler (#70268) to the metal framework of the grille (an inch or two off of the AC condenser); in the path of the mechanical fan. I used a DERALE hard-mount kit with plenty of rubber and steel washers, Loctite and care in placement.

I used some rather expensive NAPA hydraulic hose (just enough overkill to keep me happy; NOT the cheap stuff from the local discounter); double clamps at each hose end (turned so that the drives were 90-degrees apart to equalize any pull the worm-drive clamp was exerting); ran it through a sheetmetal hole that was suitably cushioned; left a fair amount of slack with long, broad, wide turns -- relatively -- used nylon hi-temp sheathing over the whole of the hose runs and secured with plenty of fat nylon zip ties (about every four inches for unsupported lengths).

(Note that NO hose went over or under the front panel . . too many ways to have problems.
Hard line would be best, but I'm terrible at bending it decently).

Remember that you are building the equivalent of a harness: so that the whole shebang can come out at once, can be inspected and the whole replaced if a tear or worn fabric is found. The "template" makes that easy.

I installed the MAGNEFINE filter a few feet after the cooler, and placed it just up inside the airdam; covered by the lower shield.

(Yeah, it took about a day-and-a-half for me to do all this; real slow PLUS I elected not to remove the front sheetmetal. Never do it that way again on a Cherokee).

In order to flush the trans, I need only move the shield out of the way, cut a few ties, remove the inlet from the filter -- and, having left myself plenty of "slack" -- I can use the hose to dump right into a five-gallon container.

As the AW-4 holds about 9-quarts, I used 12 to flush it out. (SCHAEFFERS #204s). (I also used the directed amount and mileage of an ARX treatment before the last change and installation of above; also removed and serviced pan with new filter and neoprene gasket, don't expect to service them again.) The MAGNEFINE filter is said to be good for 30k, carries a FORD part number, and is compact.

True, that a trans cooler is about impossible to flush, but at $50 bucks or so that is a cheap replacement versus a trans. I figure 60k is enough, or, every other external filter change.

[ June 14, 2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: TheTanSedan ]
 
I have a 2000 Mazda 626 that just turned 15K. On the first trip ever for this vehicle to Florida, at speeds over 65, the trans got extremely hot, and no A/C on. Solution, I changed to Full Synthetic trans fluid, added a Hayden 404 external cooler and a Magnefine filter.

My daughters 2003 Mazda Protege at 25K the trans fluid was gone. She came over last Sunday and I checked her fluid and told her it was burned. I changed the fluid, (Mercon V) and will be adding a Hayden 404 and Magnefine filter. I have never in my life seen fluid like hers, it was very brown/black and had a faint burn odor.

This is my own opinion: If you own a fairly new (8 years or newer) Mazda auto w/automatic transmission and do not add an external cooler you have more money to waste on vehicles than I do. The Mazda automatic transmission is the Edsel of automatics, can I say crapola and that is still being complimentary. JMO

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Based on the recommendations of this forum, I recently installed a transmission cooler (in-line) from the radiator on my Mazda 6 (2003).

We got some stock idle temp readings off the stock ATF temp gauge (you need a WDS to read it), and it was around 193F....YEOW. This was with the car in PARK @ IDLE.

I installed a B&M 16,000 GVW cooler (front mounted in front of the condensor), and now the idle temps sit at around 160F. Yay!
 
quote:

My daughters 2003 Mazda Protege at 25K the trans fluid was gone. She came over last Sunday and I checked her fluid and told her it was burned. I changed the fluid, (Mercon V) and will be adding a Hayden 404 and Magnefine filter. I have never in my life seen fluid like hers, it was very brown/black and had a faint burn odor.

i am surprized to hear that. my protege's ATF came out the same color as the new stuff i put in, bright red with no hint of burning.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 59 Vetteman:
I have a 2000 Mazda 626 that just turned 15K. On the first trip ever for this vehicle to Florida, at speeds over 65, the trans got extremely hot, and no A/C on. Solution, I changed to Full Synthetic trans fluid, added a Hayden 404 external cooler and a Magnefine filter.

My daughters 2003 Mazda Protege at 25K the trans fluid was gone. She came over last Sunday and I checked her fluid and told her it was burned. I changed the fluid, (Mercon V) and will be adding a Hayden 404 and Magnefine filter. I have never in my life seen fluid like hers, it was very brown/black and had a faint burn odor.

This is my own opinion: If you own a fairly new (8 years or newer) Mazda auto w/automatic transmission and do not add an external cooler you have more money to waste on vehicles than I do. The Mazda automatic transmission is the Edsel of automatics, can I say crapola and that is still being complimentary. JMO

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Very true.
My 1992 Protege had burnt AT after 60000 miles (just after the warranty expired). The $2000 rebuilt transmission overheated in the first week and I finaly learned the lesson and installed an AT cooler. No AT problems for the next 60000 miles before I got rid of this car.
Now, I have AT cooler, synthetic ATF, and AT temp gauge in my Subaru I use for occasional towing. The max temp I registered was 180-190F or so. I bet it would be much worse without the cooler.
My brand new Toyota Corolla has no AT cooler and sure enough I registered 220F AT temp by handheld IR after 85+ mph driving on a hot day with loaded car.

My conclusion: AT cooler is a must for towing OR high speed driving in a summer.

[ June 15, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: friendly_jacek ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by tom slick:

quote:

My daughters 2003 Mazda Protege at 25K the trans fluid was gone. She came over last Sunday and I checked her fluid and told her it was burned. I changed the fluid, (Mercon V) and will be adding a Hayden 404 and Magnefine filter. I have never in my life seen fluid like hers, it was very brown/black and had a faint burn odor.

i am surprized to hear that. my protege's ATF came out the same color as the new stuff i put in, bright red with no hint of burning.


Tom,
Her Mazda Protege gets driven with the A/C on and a trip up to Branson, Mo via Hwy 7. This road contains many 6%+ grades and of course she won't listen to me and take it out of overdrive on the hairpin up hill corners and 25 mph because of how sharp they are. So I will admit alot of abuse on her part.

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