Patman
Staff member
And there is your proof Andy! If there is anyone on this forum who can tell you how an oil will perform, it's Terry, who has viewed more oil analysis reports than just about anyone on the planet.
New VW TDI which oil
- Thread starter Neil Womack
- Start date
- Status
Here is what the Tips and Advise Booklet number 3.2 section of my VW Handbook says:
Engine oil Specifications and viscosity
Your engine was factory filled with an all season high quality engine oil
That has a viscosity grade of SAE 5w-40. You can use this oil over
all temperature ranges for normal driving. If you need to add oil between
oil changes use any high quality petroleum or synthetic-based oil with
the correct specifications. If engine oil viscosity grade SAE 5w-40 is not
available, you can also use 5w-30.
To assure that the oil you use is of the highest quality required by your
Vehicle the following terms must appear on the oil container singly or in
Combination with other designations.
Diesel engine
VW 505.00
ACEA B3 or ACEA B4
API service CF4 or API service CG4
This booklet is for the M.Y. 2003 Golf and is dated 06.2002
Engine oil Specifications and viscosity
Your engine was factory filled with an all season high quality engine oil
That has a viscosity grade of SAE 5w-40. You can use this oil over
all temperature ranges for normal driving. If you need to add oil between
oil changes use any high quality petroleum or synthetic-based oil with
the correct specifications. If engine oil viscosity grade SAE 5w-40 is not
available, you can also use 5w-30.
To assure that the oil you use is of the highest quality required by your
Vehicle the following terms must appear on the oil container singly or in
Combination with other designations.
Diesel engine
VW 505.00
ACEA B3 or ACEA B4
API service CF4 or API service CG4
This booklet is for the M.Y. 2003 Golf and is dated 06.2002
Hi Neil, Mine says essentially the same thing. keep in mind that the warranty and service bulletins are updated and supercede the writing in the owner's manual. As I've already explained - the recommendation for the TDIs once was petroleum or synth. That recommendation was updated when engines were being damaged by the broken-down petroleum in the ring grooves.
Use what you wish. Keep in mind, tho, that my 96 Passat TDI already had significant ring and cylinder wear trouble after only 60,000 miles. It was a lease that always had VW service. The gent that leased the car bouht it off-lease and continued the VW service.
Patman, with a lot of respect to both you and Terry, this isn't the proof I'm looking for.
1. the oil meets VW 502/505
2. I fully expect it will perform better than a straight petroleum oil in a majority of applications
3. I expect it will not perform up to a full synth
One last time: The piston rings in these engines are VERY HIGH and VERY HOT and significant damage to the engine ocurres in at least 60,000 miles. As the ring lands fill with dino crud, chrome and iron wear continues to climb. The manufacturer changed the requirement from dino, or blend, to full synth ONLY. The ring probs have stopped.
A blend can meet the VW spec. A blend CANNOT satisfy the ammended service requirement for VW TDI engines and the breaking-down of the oil will cause damage to the engines.
MolaKule, The oils that are designed for ACEA A5 (gas) and B5-02 (light duty diesel), which M1 lists on their labels, are designed for European extended drain intervals. Since the average of ALL European change intervals is 10,000 miles, A5/B5 oils have to be designed to exceed these intervals. It has to be that way - by definition, if the average is 10K, some folks change earlier and some run longer.
The proof is all over Europe. PLEASE read the articles I referenced above.
Andy, I can appreciate where you're coming from since you are a closet amsoil salesman and you like myself, have to believe in your products. The problem is 2things, it's not a good practice to tell someone something about another product you do not know anything about. This is quite obvious because of your statement of it will not perform up to a full synth. Interesting that you've done a lot of reading but have failed to really look at real data and see for yourself where this statement doesn't hold true. All your info is based on technical and non technical info on the broad spectrum of basic petro oil and you keep classifing the Schaeffers in with the average oil. Fine. I'd like to suggest YOU DO a little more reading... I'll even give you a couple of direct links so you don't even have to look far. This is not a I think it will or even a maybe it will or will not, it is nothing but pure DATA. NUMBERS. They speak louder than any bunch of words put on paper and maybe from this you'll see that when trying to impress someone on your specific product, you don't do so by down playing another without any facts. The so called facts you have are not lab results on any particular brand of oil but an over all blanket statement by them covering the general basic oil. This doesn't mean all and what these links will show you is that yes, a blend can hold up as well as a full synth
Look at the sixth post down for the comparision on this one...
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000003#000000
No this one is not a small diesel engine..
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000007 But a Mack Truck...
Of course this isn't against a full synth but maybe this will show you how well it does do in longer drain intervals with diesel engines..
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000019#000000
That's just a couple diesel ones, I have some actual comparisions against amsoil and m1 which I'll have to dig up later.
I'know, before you go there, yeah, it's not a TDI, which really tears up oil, well, for what its' worth, you might really want to slow down on touting there's no way a blend can hold up to a full synth as you obviously think theres that much difference between all these and a tdi, you're missing the point here, and one is those big diesel engines, their piston rings are wayyyy up higher than a tdi, and I even have pictures to show you there's no carbon build up on a 343? CAT engine around the pistons, or even on the crowns of the pistons. That engine was using the str wt 40 molybond mineral oil. Oh, yes, that's the same base oil except it doesn't have the pao in it, so if that can handle it, imagine what a little pao can do for it as well.
Happy ready.
Bob, Please stop the smoke! I'm not trying to sell anything. Since I'm not a sponsor I'm not bound by your gag clauses either. I drive a TDI and you recommended a product that DOES NOT meet the requirements of the manufacturer of the car. That didn't stop you from recommending the product even after you learned that that a synthetic oil is required. Bloody irresponsible.
I've read the items you link to. AGAIN I tell you you're suffering from an inability to see the issue at hand thru your blinders! Cummins hasn't changed their oil requirement because of ring sticking, have they? THEN WHY DO YOU INSIST ON DRAWING PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE SUBJECT? What do you feel you have to hide with these tactics?
Sell your products any way you wish - but at least tell your customers the truth and let them know that they're experimenting with their engine. Then at least it's their choice.
I'm outta here. I thought you folks were smart enough to understand this issue.
I recommend the TDI drivers spend some time at tdi site where at least you'll get good info about your vehicles. And I don't own the TDI Site either.
edited out the site link to another forum
[ May 11, 2003, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
I've read the items you link to. AGAIN I tell you you're suffering from an inability to see the issue at hand thru your blinders! Cummins hasn't changed their oil requirement because of ring sticking, have they? THEN WHY DO YOU INSIST ON DRAWING PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE SUBJECT? What do you feel you have to hide with these tactics?
Sell your products any way you wish - but at least tell your customers the truth and let them know that they're experimenting with their engine. Then at least it's their choice.
I'm outta here. I thought you folks were smart enough to understand this issue.
I recommend the TDI drivers spend some time at tdi site where at least you'll get good info about your vehicles. And I don't own the TDI Site either.
edited out the site link to another forum
[ May 11, 2003, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Patman
Staff member
Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.
Andy, you don't have to leave or get upset, Heck Bob and me have NEVER agreed about the definition of SOLVENTS, 131 vs Auto-RX, laminar vs turbulent flow in synthetics, etc. on and on... But we still respect each other and engage not to hurt one another or push our pet agendas.
We engage in discussion to learn, if it wasn't for my friend Bob I would still be resistant to Moly being used in motor oil for non racing engines.
If it wasn't for Bob and his willingness to provide a place for all to see oil analysis results and share them for the board members common good, You would never have heard of me or my company because Noria would have been the last place for me to post and it is dead anymore. I was heading back to strictly non consumer oriented work until Bob convinced me to contribute here.
This site is different or I would leave and never support it again. We can disagree, get publicly corrected and still get along.
Get off the defense of the TDI issue, we understand your position,I respect it and so does Bob.I understand your experience has soured you not using a "100%" synthetic. Could brand loyalty or marketing be a primary influence for you and not technical facts ?
The chemist at Chevron Phillips I told you about and provided contact info is a informed unbiased source for you to confirm this issue. Are tribilogical facts getting in the way of your opinion?
Consider the remote possibility that a hot burning TDI could run safely on something besides a 100% synthetic. IF thats the case you should consider Redline over Amsoil AME or HDD for better thermal degradation characteristics.
Please come back and be a contributor not a quitter.
[ May 11, 2003, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
We engage in discussion to learn, if it wasn't for my friend Bob I would still be resistant to Moly being used in motor oil for non racing engines.
If it wasn't for Bob and his willingness to provide a place for all to see oil analysis results and share them for the board members common good, You would never have heard of me or my company because Noria would have been the last place for me to post and it is dead anymore. I was heading back to strictly non consumer oriented work until Bob convinced me to contribute here.
This site is different or I would leave and never support it again. We can disagree, get publicly corrected and still get along.
Get off the defense of the TDI issue, we understand your position,I respect it and so does Bob.I understand your experience has soured you not using a "100%" synthetic. Could brand loyalty or marketing be a primary influence for you and not technical facts ?
The chemist at Chevron Phillips I told you about and provided contact info is a informed unbiased source for you to confirm this issue. Are tribilogical facts getting in the way of your opinion?
Consider the remote possibility that a hot burning TDI could run safely on something besides a 100% synthetic. IF thats the case you should consider Redline over Amsoil AME or HDD for better thermal degradation characteristics.
Please come back and be a contributor not a quitter.
[ May 11, 2003, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
Terry,
Once again, I appreciate your comments here. I've learned from and respect both your analysis and your willingness to give to the group.
I didn't come into this thread to push a product, an agenda, or bash anyone elses product. I came to communicate a single point, which I believe I backed up with facts and documentation. That single point, until your last message, wasn't recognized. Instead, it appears to have decayed into 'discredit the messenger'.
Neither brand loyalty nor marketing is at issue with my statements. For whatever karmic reasons, I've owned the only two vehicles that I'm aware of that have specific oil requirements from the manufacturer - Mazda forbids the use of synthetics or blends for their rotary engine.
I appreciate the contact at Chevron Phillips. I'll add him to my list of advisors. He's not the sole member.
As for tribological facts and remote possibilities: I believe I've already covered my thoughts in the messages above. I really tried to make them as clear and as unemotional as possible. I understand that there are times in our human experience where the engineering calculations don't quite work out on the road. VW has been bitten by that bug in a big way and has changed their recommendation. I don't doubt that any number of products will work well in these engines -- I expect there's room for Mazda to try some new synthetics and VW to try some new formulations in their engines. BUT they haven't yet. There's plenty of proof and history as to why oil selection is a problem in these engines.
I've tried to balance thermal degredation with demonstrated cleaning ability (like Bob's valve guide cleaning demo where AMSOIL HDD was acknowledged best). I'm still cleaning my engine in hopes that I don't have to tear it down. So far, after 5K, it's doing very well and I'm happy with my decision.
Take care.
Once again, I appreciate your comments here. I've learned from and respect both your analysis and your willingness to give to the group.
I didn't come into this thread to push a product, an agenda, or bash anyone elses product. I came to communicate a single point, which I believe I backed up with facts and documentation. That single point, until your last message, wasn't recognized. Instead, it appears to have decayed into 'discredit the messenger'.
Neither brand loyalty nor marketing is at issue with my statements. For whatever karmic reasons, I've owned the only two vehicles that I'm aware of that have specific oil requirements from the manufacturer - Mazda forbids the use of synthetics or blends for their rotary engine.
I appreciate the contact at Chevron Phillips. I'll add him to my list of advisors. He's not the sole member.
As for tribological facts and remote possibilities: I believe I've already covered my thoughts in the messages above. I really tried to make them as clear and as unemotional as possible. I understand that there are times in our human experience where the engineering calculations don't quite work out on the road. VW has been bitten by that bug in a big way and has changed their recommendation. I don't doubt that any number of products will work well in these engines -- I expect there's room for Mazda to try some new synthetics and VW to try some new formulations in their engines. BUT they haven't yet. There's plenty of proof and history as to why oil selection is a problem in these engines.
I've tried to balance thermal degredation with demonstrated cleaning ability (like Bob's valve guide cleaning demo where AMSOIL HDD was acknowledged best). I'm still cleaning my engine in hopes that I don't have to tear it down. So far, after 5K, it's doing very well and I'm happy with my decision.
Take care.
Andy, just so you know, I only mentioned your relationship to amsoil as you have been extremely head strong on synth only and felt that it would be germain to the subject so that everyone knows where you're coming from as they also know where I'm coming from. Just bringing out more of the facts about your statement against schaffers.
To that, I have nothing else to say as I am tired of repeating myself as well and don't know just how else to explain that it's nothing to do with it having to be synth only and such but you are not qualified to state for a certainty that schaeffers oil won't hold up based on a manufactures over all tech bulletin. This is not to discredit your contribution, but to bring to you that just maybe your contribution is swayed by mis information or lack of? As Terry pointed out, I have been known to be right on occassion.
VW has tons of evidence which remains valid even without your stamp of approval.
Yet, you wish me to disregard my and other's research and simply believe what I hear from you?
Nope, told you before, I'm not trying to convince no one they are wrong, especially you, when it comes to the oil you use, just you making incorrect statements about schaeffers. sure would like to see more of your oil analysis showing the trend you have with the full synth in your tdi. That's one thing that can put this to bed, put the numbers up.
Like I said, e nuf said. done.
BTW, only reason why this was pulled off for a moment last night was one mod saw where you were posting a link to another forum against the rules and I kindly corrected it and replaced it back. simple as that. I have no issue of you posting and have never deleted any of your posts personally.
[ May 11, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
To that, I have nothing else to say as I am tired of repeating myself as well and don't know just how else to explain that it's nothing to do with it having to be synth only and such but you are not qualified to state for a certainty that schaeffers oil won't hold up based on a manufactures over all tech bulletin. This is not to discredit your contribution, but to bring to you that just maybe your contribution is swayed by mis information or lack of? As Terry pointed out, I have been known to be right on occassion.
VW has tons of evidence which remains valid even without your stamp of approval.
Yet, you wish me to disregard my and other's research and simply believe what I hear from you?
Nope, told you before, I'm not trying to convince no one they are wrong, especially you, when it comes to the oil you use, just you making incorrect statements about schaeffers. sure would like to see more of your oil analysis showing the trend you have with the full synth in your tdi. That's one thing that can put this to bed, put the numbers up.
Like I said, e nuf said. done.
BTW, only reason why this was pulled off for a moment last night was one mod saw where you were posting a link to another forum against the rules and I kindly corrected it and replaced it back. simple as that. I have no issue of you posting and have never deleted any of your posts personally.
[ May 11, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
VW HAS STATED THAT THE SUBSTANCE USED IN THEIR TDI ENGINES NOT ONLY HAS TO MEET 502 OR 505 DEPENDING ON YEAR, BUT ALSO HAS TO BE SYNTHETIC.
Let me say that again: To meet VW's requirements, the oil has to have an acceptable viscosity, meet applicable specs (VW 502.00 or VW 505.00 or CF or CI-4 or whatever) AND HAS TO BE SYNTHETIC.
Group III is a highly modified petroleum that won the right to be called synthetic. Think Castrol Syntec or Rotella T. Group IV and Group V are considered to be the 'real' synthetic base stocks.
The VW dealer oil used for factory service of their TDI engines is Castrol Syntec and is a Group III base.
[/opinion] [/QB][/QUOTE]
Thanks Andy H for clearing this up for me. I am glad that VWoA requires Group III petroleum 5W40 Synthetic and not group IV/V. The above are statements from your post, not mine.
Looks like Petro Canada Duron, Shell Rotella and VW Castrol are good candidates for the TDI, all are 5W40. Some boutique oils don't have a 5W40, so to go by the letter of the law, don't use a 15W40, not approved by VW. Also if you are under warranty, look for the API seal. Just trying to use the requirements of VW. I am not interested in meets such and such if it doesn't have the API seal. Mobil DelvacI and Cat Syn 5W40 also meet these requirements for a Grp.IV/V oil if you chose.
Let me say that again: To meet VW's requirements, the oil has to have an acceptable viscosity, meet applicable specs (VW 502.00 or VW 505.00 or CF or CI-4 or whatever) AND HAS TO BE SYNTHETIC.
Group III is a highly modified petroleum that won the right to be called synthetic. Think Castrol Syntec or Rotella T. Group IV and Group V are considered to be the 'real' synthetic base stocks.
The VW dealer oil used for factory service of their TDI engines is Castrol Syntec and is a Group III base.
[/opinion] [/QB][/QUOTE]
Thanks Andy H for clearing this up for me. I am glad that VWoA requires Group III petroleum 5W40 Synthetic and not group IV/V. The above are statements from your post, not mine.
Looks like Petro Canada Duron, Shell Rotella and VW Castrol are good candidates for the TDI, all are 5W40. Some boutique oils don't have a 5W40, so to go by the letter of the law, don't use a 15W40, not approved by VW. Also if you are under warranty, look for the API seal. Just trying to use the requirements of VW. I am not interested in meets such and such if it doesn't have the API seal. Mobil DelvacI and Cat Syn 5W40 also meet these requirements for a Grp.IV/V oil if you chose.
59 Vetteman: THANK YOU for breaking this down to the fine points. I won't comment on all of the above post on this topic as I would be repeating what everyone else has said, and I would not want to mis-quote anyone. But since you posted the way you did, let me add one more product to the mix.
PENNZOIL Europen Formula 5W40 Synthetic. I will quote exactly from the application guide and spec sheet.
PENNZOIL SYNTHETIC EUROPEAN FORMULATION can be used in both passenger car and light duty diesel applications. It is specifically recommended for BMW, Porsche, and where Mercedes Benz 229.3, VW 502, or VW 505 is required. PENNZOIL SYNTHETIC EUROPEAN FORMULATION surpasses the performance requirements of API SL/CF and ACEA A3/B3. PENNZOIL SYNTHETIC EUROPEAN FORMULATION is only available in SAE 5W40 viscosity grade.
Viscosity @ 100C = 14.2
Pour Point = -39
HTHS = 3.90
And this is also a Group III with about 30% PAO.
This has been really interesting reading.
I had to add one more thing. I have 4 of the largest VW dealers in Wisconsin using this product instead of the Castrol Syntec 5W40, and I also have 1 BMW dealer and 2 Mercedes dealers using this product instead of Castrol and Mobil 1. So for all are very satisfied.
[ May 11, 2003, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Johnny ]
PENNZOIL Europen Formula 5W40 Synthetic. I will quote exactly from the application guide and spec sheet.
PENNZOIL SYNTHETIC EUROPEAN FORMULATION can be used in both passenger car and light duty diesel applications. It is specifically recommended for BMW, Porsche, and where Mercedes Benz 229.3, VW 502, or VW 505 is required. PENNZOIL SYNTHETIC EUROPEAN FORMULATION surpasses the performance requirements of API SL/CF and ACEA A3/B3. PENNZOIL SYNTHETIC EUROPEAN FORMULATION is only available in SAE 5W40 viscosity grade.
Viscosity @ 100C = 14.2
Pour Point = -39
HTHS = 3.90
And this is also a Group III with about 30% PAO.
This has been really interesting reading.
I had to add one more thing. I have 4 of the largest VW dealers in Wisconsin using this product instead of the Castrol Syntec 5W40, and I also have 1 BMW dealer and 2 Mercedes dealers using this product instead of Castrol and Mobil 1. So for all are very satisfied.
[ May 11, 2003, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Johnny ]
Originally posted by Andy H:
Bob, Please stop the smoke! I'm not trying to sell anything. Didn't say you were. Just letting you know that I understand why you're so set on this issue due to your connection with amsoil, and I appreciate where you're coming from. You almost sound offended and or maybe even embarrassed about being an amsoil rep?
Why do you feel this is even germain to the subject? I'm not at all offended or ashamed of my work with AMSOIL. I am well aware of, and attempting to respect, the board policy of not advertizing or pushing a product. I'm sad and discouraged that you still believe that the reason I posted here has anything to do with any single product. Not the point at all as I've repetedly stressed.
Since I'm not a sponsor I'm not bound by your gag clauses either. Interesting you'd think that, as I don't believe I have anyone here gagged, ESPECIALLY YOU I drive a TDI and you recommended a product that DOES NOT meet the requirements of the manufacturer of the car. That didn't stop you from recommending the product even after you learned that that a synthetic oil is required. Excuse me Andy, but I haven't learned that synthetic oil is required first of all, but have learned YOU SAY IT IS.
??? Ok. Damaged engines and factory requirements haven't suggested to you that petroleum doesn't work in these engines? Then I congratulate you on playing this game so well that no fact, regardless of how hard fought or meaningful, can change your mind.
Actually Andy, you obviously are very defensive as we are not trying to say what you're using isn't correct, nor am I saying that synth's is not the better choice, but I am saying and proving I might add that you are not up to speed on other lubes as you may think you are, and when you state an opinion as fact as you did with saying schaeffers wont work, then YOU are being "Bloody irresponsible" as you put it. As you can see on this site, we don't just believe people just because they say so, but because we look more into what it's all about.
Bob, I suggest that your defensiveness and my frustration haven't helped matters. My purpose for posting here has never been about the product I choose to use, or the product you represent. It's about demonstrated, factual, scientific, proof that was large enough to overcome an entire company's intertia in product recommendation and warranty service. Large companies just plain do not decide one day to spend large sums of money testing, and then paying for synth oil unless there's a very good reason. Do you have ANY idea how many bean-counters an organization the size of VAG or VWoA has resisting increased spending on warranty service? I don't understand why that's so hard for you to grasp. I know you can grasp such things - like Toyota V6s.
Well, I see from some of your analysis you've provided that you have done a little experimentation with rotella, then moved to amsoil. Now, interesting you are so stead fast on where your at, based on what I seen, you did improve on the wear limits with the amsoil, but with only 5700 miles on amsoil, you seemed to have depleted down to b> Then at least it's their choice. Correct
You assume, sir, that the posts represent the only data I used in what might appear to be a less than scientific decision. Not at all correct. But instead of facts, you choose to use this to discredit my contribution.
And again - this is germain to the discussion HOW?
I'm outta here. I thought you folks were smart enough to understand this issue. Thats correct, we do, you've seemed to failed miserably at this Andy. We understand that you have an opinion of what is or isn't going to work, As we do. We understand you're embarrassed to be recognized as an amsoil rep(why I have no idea as it is a good product). We understand you can't believe there's other oils beside a full synth that can perform as good or better than some full synth's. This is what boggles my mind is you're so closed minded even when the #'s support the evidence we show you. Of course I can go on what we do understand but I'll let it be as I don't want to go there.
I recommend the TDI drivers spend some time at tdi site where at least you'll get good info about your vehicles. And I don't own the TDI Site either. I know you don't, otherwise some 10 posts you had on there about this same subject wouldn't be disappearing from being deleted on there if it was yours. SAD, that you think they listen to you on there and yet try and support their site. At least Andy, I will have a dialog with you about my issues on your comments/ statements and up till now, other than you not understanding my issue with you was your factual comment about schaeffers, I've had no problem with what you say. I really don't even want to convince you to change, that's not what I am looking to do, nor do I want to change anyone else over from amsoil as I think it's a good oil and if some one is happy with it, then stay with it. As you pointed out though, it's their car/ engine. I just believe that you don't need to down grade another oil with out putting up some facts and those papers that VW put out, doesn't say Schaeffers anywhere, but dino oil in general.[/i]
Bob, there's been only one site in which I've posted where my messages have been deleted - right here. It was no surprise that this thread was removed from the board last night. I didn't expect to see it here today.
Faulty logic, Bob. Since VW didn't specifically disprove Schaeffers it's ok to use? You don't really believe that, do you?
This is why so many like this site as we work at seeing what is or isn't what it says it will do not by just speculating but doing oil analysis and such. Even you have done yours, and by looking at it, it shows you what you may or may not know, and when the schaeffers oil analysis comes out from a tdi, then you'll see for your self, that you may or may not be right.
At that point, then either you or me is going to be able to say I TOLD YOU SO. NOW YOU'LL HAVE SOME EVIDENCE to back up what your saying or MAYBE You'll have some evidence that YOU WERE WRONG in just believing what you hear.
VW has tons of evidence which remains valid even without your stamp of approval.
Yet, you wish me to disregard my and other's research and simply believe what I hear from you?
As already stated, I look forward to seeing the results. Since it takes more than one oil fill to damage the engine, I look forward to seeing the condition of an engine after 60,000 miles. But I repeat myself again.
Bob, Please stop the smoke! I'm not trying to sell anything. Didn't say you were. Just letting you know that I understand why you're so set on this issue due to your connection with amsoil, and I appreciate where you're coming from. You almost sound offended and or maybe even embarrassed about being an amsoil rep?
Why do you feel this is even germain to the subject? I'm not at all offended or ashamed of my work with AMSOIL. I am well aware of, and attempting to respect, the board policy of not advertizing or pushing a product. I'm sad and discouraged that you still believe that the reason I posted here has anything to do with any single product. Not the point at all as I've repetedly stressed.
Since I'm not a sponsor I'm not bound by your gag clauses either. Interesting you'd think that, as I don't believe I have anyone here gagged, ESPECIALLY YOU I drive a TDI and you recommended a product that DOES NOT meet the requirements of the manufacturer of the car. That didn't stop you from recommending the product even after you learned that that a synthetic oil is required. Excuse me Andy, but I haven't learned that synthetic oil is required first of all, but have learned YOU SAY IT IS.
??? Ok. Damaged engines and factory requirements haven't suggested to you that petroleum doesn't work in these engines? Then I congratulate you on playing this game so well that no fact, regardless of how hard fought or meaningful, can change your mind.
Actually Andy, you obviously are very defensive as we are not trying to say what you're using isn't correct, nor am I saying that synth's is not the better choice, but I am saying and proving I might add that you are not up to speed on other lubes as you may think you are, and when you state an opinion as fact as you did with saying schaeffers wont work, then YOU are being "Bloody irresponsible" as you put it. As you can see on this site, we don't just believe people just because they say so, but because we look more into what it's all about.
Bob, I suggest that your defensiveness and my frustration haven't helped matters. My purpose for posting here has never been about the product I choose to use, or the product you represent. It's about demonstrated, factual, scientific, proof that was large enough to overcome an entire company's intertia in product recommendation and warranty service. Large companies just plain do not decide one day to spend large sums of money testing, and then paying for synth oil unless there's a very good reason. Do you have ANY idea how many bean-counters an organization the size of VAG or VWoA has resisting increased spending on warranty service? I don't understand why that's so hard for you to grasp. I know you can grasp such things - like Toyota V6s.
Well, I see from some of your analysis you've provided that you have done a little experimentation with rotella, then moved to amsoil. Now, interesting you are so stead fast on where your at, based on what I seen, you did improve on the wear limits with the amsoil, but with only 5700 miles on amsoil, you seemed to have depleted down to b> Then at least it's their choice. Correct
You assume, sir, that the posts represent the only data I used in what might appear to be a less than scientific decision. Not at all correct. But instead of facts, you choose to use this to discredit my contribution.
And again - this is germain to the discussion HOW?
I'm outta here. I thought you folks were smart enough to understand this issue. Thats correct, we do, you've seemed to failed miserably at this Andy. We understand that you have an opinion of what is or isn't going to work, As we do. We understand you're embarrassed to be recognized as an amsoil rep(why I have no idea as it is a good product). We understand you can't believe there's other oils beside a full synth that can perform as good or better than some full synth's. This is what boggles my mind is you're so closed minded even when the #'s support the evidence we show you. Of course I can go on what we do understand but I'll let it be as I don't want to go there.
I recommend the TDI drivers spend some time at tdi site where at least you'll get good info about your vehicles. And I don't own the TDI Site either. I know you don't, otherwise some 10 posts you had on there about this same subject wouldn't be disappearing from being deleted on there if it was yours. SAD, that you think they listen to you on there and yet try and support their site. At least Andy, I will have a dialog with you about my issues on your comments/ statements and up till now, other than you not understanding my issue with you was your factual comment about schaeffers, I've had no problem with what you say. I really don't even want to convince you to change, that's not what I am looking to do, nor do I want to change anyone else over from amsoil as I think it's a good oil and if some one is happy with it, then stay with it. As you pointed out though, it's their car/ engine. I just believe that you don't need to down grade another oil with out putting up some facts and those papers that VW put out, doesn't say Schaeffers anywhere, but dino oil in general.[/i]
Bob, there's been only one site in which I've posted where my messages have been deleted - right here. It was no surprise that this thread was removed from the board last night. I didn't expect to see it here today.
Faulty logic, Bob. Since VW didn't specifically disprove Schaeffers it's ok to use? You don't really believe that, do you?
This is why so many like this site as we work at seeing what is or isn't what it says it will do not by just speculating but doing oil analysis and such. Even you have done yours, and by looking at it, it shows you what you may or may not know, and when the schaeffers oil analysis comes out from a tdi, then you'll see for your self, that you may or may not be right.
At that point, then either you or me is going to be able to say I TOLD YOU SO. NOW YOU'LL HAVE SOME EVIDENCE to back up what your saying or MAYBE You'll have some evidence that YOU WERE WRONG in just believing what you hear.
VW has tons of evidence which remains valid even without your stamp of approval.
Yet, you wish me to disregard my and other's research and simply believe what I hear from you?
As already stated, I look forward to seeing the results. Since it takes more than one oil fill to damage the engine, I look forward to seeing the condition of an engine after 60,000 miles. But I repeat myself again.
Vetteman,
It appears to me that you feel your last post was significant, but I guess I missed it. While you call group III petroleum, the industry calls it synthetic. If you wish to split hairs even finer, since many non-group III synthetics begin life as liquified natural gas, one might feel all bases from 5 are petroleum. I guess I have to park my VW since I can't satisfy their requirements.
Dude, what's the point?
The oils you listed have been spoken of quite highly by folks that have run them. Some perform better, some not.
Please note, tho, that the info I posted specified 5W30 not 5W40, and these bulletins specify the warranty service oil to be installed by the dealer.
Your statements about not being able to use other viscosities of oil are incorrect. From my 96 Passat shop manual: Energy conserving oil for all temperature ranges: 5W-30, 5W-40, 10W-30, 10W-40. For non-conserving all temperatures, add 5W-50, 10W-50, 10W-60. Below 60F 5W-30, 5W-40. from 60F to zeroF, 10W-30, 10W-40. From zeroF up, 15W-40, 15W-50, 20W-40, and 20W-50.
The manual also states to "look for one of these symbols on the front of the oil container and use only oils that display these symbols." One symbol is the API 'starburst'. The second is the inner/outer ring with the API service code outside and viscosity inside. Since only the starburst is an API trademark, and I can use an oil with one or the other, I can safely use a non-API certified lube that meets or exceeds the specifications required.
That even opens the door to run Penzoil High Mileage Vehicle oil if I choose, which isn't API certified.
It appears to me that you feel your last post was significant, but I guess I missed it. While you call group III petroleum, the industry calls it synthetic. If you wish to split hairs even finer, since many non-group III synthetics begin life as liquified natural gas, one might feel all bases from 5 are petroleum. I guess I have to park my VW since I can't satisfy their requirements.
Dude, what's the point?
The oils you listed have been spoken of quite highly by folks that have run them. Some perform better, some not.
Please note, tho, that the info I posted specified 5W30 not 5W40, and these bulletins specify the warranty service oil to be installed by the dealer.
Your statements about not being able to use other viscosities of oil are incorrect. From my 96 Passat shop manual: Energy conserving oil for all temperature ranges: 5W-30, 5W-40, 10W-30, 10W-40. For non-conserving all temperatures, add 5W-50, 10W-50, 10W-60. Below 60F 5W-30, 5W-40. from 60F to zeroF, 10W-30, 10W-40. From zeroF up, 15W-40, 15W-50, 20W-40, and 20W-50.
The manual also states to "look for one of these symbols on the front of the oil container and use only oils that display these symbols." One symbol is the API 'starburst'. The second is the inner/outer ring with the API service code outside and viscosity inside. Since only the starburst is an API trademark, and I can use an oil with one or the other, I can safely use a non-API certified lube that meets or exceeds the specifications required.
That even opens the door to run Penzoil High Mileage Vehicle oil if I choose, which isn't API certified.
Dear Bob,
Then please also see fit to mention my relationship with the USAF where I see vehicles that never leave a base serviced with the cheapest, lowest bidder petroleum crap that can be legally (if not morally) put in a barrel, while the vehicles that are stuffed into C-141s and C-5s to go overseas where diesel service centers might be more limited are serviced with synthetics.
The thread was about oil use in a specific application, with which I have some experience.
Set me straight, then. Which is incorrect? That the oil you recommended for this application is 80% group 1/2 and 20% group 4/5? That use of group 1/2 oils have been demonstrated to cause engine damage in this application? That there is to date one vehicle running your recommended product and has nowhere near 60,000 miles?
If I post every analysis I have, it would demonstrate that my engine is improving with a full synthetic that you yourself found to be the best cleaner of the oils you chose for your test. The numbers I could post shows nothing that VW hasn't already found out: Petroleum causes problems and synthetics don't.
I agree with you COMPLETELY: "That's one thing that can put this to bed, put the numbers up."
Where are the numbers supporting your recommendation? Since this is the crux of the discussion, these are the only numbers that can put this issue to bed.
A fine line, but one I believe needs to be scribed yet again: My issue is with the use of a group 1 or 2 oil in this application. When I see something that suggests an oil in this class can take the heat, I'll cross over to your side. Until then, I'm unable. And that is 100% independent of what you, I, VW, or anyone else chooses to use or recommend.
Have a great week.
Then please also see fit to mention my relationship with the USAF where I see vehicles that never leave a base serviced with the cheapest, lowest bidder petroleum crap that can be legally (if not morally) put in a barrel, while the vehicles that are stuffed into C-141s and C-5s to go overseas where diesel service centers might be more limited are serviced with synthetics.
The thread was about oil use in a specific application, with which I have some experience.
Set me straight, then. Which is incorrect? That the oil you recommended for this application is 80% group 1/2 and 20% group 4/5? That use of group 1/2 oils have been demonstrated to cause engine damage in this application? That there is to date one vehicle running your recommended product and has nowhere near 60,000 miles?
If I post every analysis I have, it would demonstrate that my engine is improving with a full synthetic that you yourself found to be the best cleaner of the oils you chose for your test. The numbers I could post shows nothing that VW hasn't already found out: Petroleum causes problems and synthetics don't.
I agree with you COMPLETELY: "That's one thing that can put this to bed, put the numbers up."
Where are the numbers supporting your recommendation? Since this is the crux of the discussion, these are the only numbers that can put this issue to bed.
A fine line, but one I believe needs to be scribed yet again: My issue is with the use of a group 1 or 2 oil in this application. When I see something that suggests an oil in this class can take the heat, I'll cross over to your side. Until then, I'm unable. And that is 100% independent of what you, I, VW, or anyone else chooses to use or recommend.
Have a great week.
These are excerpts from Andy H preceding posts above not mine.
VW HAS STATED THAT THE SUBSTANCE USED IN THEIR TDI ENGINES NOT ONLY HAS TO MEET 502 OR 505 DEPENDING ON YEAR, BUT ALSO HAS TO BE SYNTHETIC.
Let me say that again: To meet VW's requirements, the oil has to have an acceptable viscosity, meet applicable specs (VW 502.00 or VW 505.00 or CF or CI-4 or whatever) AND HAS TO BE SYNTHETIC.
Group III is a highly modified petroleum that won the right to be called synthetic. Think Castrol Syntec or Rotella T. Group IV and Group V are considered to be the 'real' synthetic base stocks.
The VW dealer oil used for factory service of their TDI engines is Castrol Syntec and is a Group III base.
[/opinion] [/QB][/QUOTE]
All excerpts from Andy H posts. Not mine. Then read his response above and he tries to blame me for HIS statements.
VW HAS STATED THAT THE SUBSTANCE USED IN THEIR TDI ENGINES NOT ONLY HAS TO MEET 502 OR 505 DEPENDING ON YEAR, BUT ALSO HAS TO BE SYNTHETIC.
Let me say that again: To meet VW's requirements, the oil has to have an acceptable viscosity, meet applicable specs (VW 502.00 or VW 505.00 or CF or CI-4 or whatever) AND HAS TO BE SYNTHETIC.
Group III is a highly modified petroleum that won the right to be called synthetic. Think Castrol Syntec or Rotella T. Group IV and Group V are considered to be the 'real' synthetic base stocks.
The VW dealer oil used for factory service of their TDI engines is Castrol Syntec and is a Group III base.
[/opinion] [/QB][/QUOTE]
All excerpts from Andy H posts. Not mine. Then read his response above and he tries to blame me for HIS statements.
- Status
Similar threads
