weight of GM synchromesh/compatability w/honda transmissions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
May 5, 2003
Messages
4
Location
ct
Couldnt find this info through a search...so figured its about time i register and post!

My 3rd gear synchro is acting up, i have recently within 3k miles replaced my MTF in my 93prelude with Honda MTF, which is a 30weight fluid. I have heard great things about GM synchromesh, but am under the impression that most domestics, and alot of imports, run much thicker 90weight gear oil, and therefore the GM product must be of approximately the same weight. I dont see how using the GM fluid could provide the correct friction for my honda synchro's over the long run...i have however seen several other honda owners swear by it. These include ITR owners and NSX owners, as well as some prelude owners. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
 
Try Redline MTL or MT-90.

I am not clear about your statement since you're talking about Honda MTS,' GM synchromeshes, etc.

Did you drain the previous MTF in your GM synchromesh, and replace it with Honda ATF?

Maybe you could clarify.

Whatever you said, try Redline MTL or MT-90; since I have cured quite a few notchy and sticky shifting problems, and whine with these manual tranny lubes.
 
quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:

Did you drain the previous MTF in your GM synchromesh, and replace it with Honda ATF?


GM Synchromesh is the name of a manual transmission fluid sold by GM. He wants to use this fluid in his Honda transmission. I've heard of people doing so and being satisfied with the shifter feel. I don't know about wear, and if it is indeed thicker than SAE 30 motor oil, I don't know that it would work well in my Honda gearbox. The synchros seem a lot happier when the oil has been run hard, so I assume that more viscosity isn't what's needed.
 
to clarify...

service manual for my 1993 honda prelude specifies 10W-30 motor oil for manual transmission fluid, or more recently, Honda's own fluid (wasn't developed yet in '93). Since i just changed the fluid with Honda's manual transmission fluid and am still experiencing grinding, i was looking for other alternatives.

Alot of people seemed to recommend GM Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid. However, i imagine that being developed for GM products requiring 90weight oil in their transmissions, there may be some compatablity issues with my transmission, requiring only 30weight.

However, i could not find the actual weight of the GM fluid online anywhere, or through a quick search of the site.
 
quote:

Originally posted by jay_bro:
However, i imagine that being developed for GM products requiring 90weight oil in their transmissions, there may be some compatablity issues with my transmission, requiring only 30weight.

Here's something you may not realize: The weights for gear oils are on a different scale from motor oils. The GM trannies take a 90 weight gear oil, and Honda specs a 30 weight motor oil for the transmission.

If you look at Bob's viscosity chart, you will see that a 90 weight gear oil is, indeed, thicker than a 30 weight motor oil, but it's not just because 90 is bigger than 30. In fact, the 90 weight gear oil is about the same as 50 weight motor oil.
 
I agree with molakule. Redline products are great in gear box's. MTL is the best thing I have found to replicate the old whale oil based lubes that were used in the old saginaw and muncie manual transmissions. I would imagine that they would also work great in your Honda. Alot of guys also like Amsoil 5W30(I think) Series 3000 diesle oil in gear box's. Syncromesh is old news we are on to Syncromesh II now! Modern manuals produced by NV/NP have oil pumps in them just like an engine and they actualy pump the oil up to the parts instead of depending on splash and climbing action.
 
GM Transmissions don't take 90 weight. My sunbird uses Syncromesh and that fluid feels like a 20 weight. It's like water and works very very well.
 
well that viscosity chart cleared up alot, thanks. so seeing that a 30weight motor oil is appr. equivalent to a 90 weight gear oil, the GM formula should be compatible with my honda transmission.

im guessing the slight amount that the two figures are off, however, is not anything that will be damaging then? the chart shows 30weight motor oil equaling, as MPH said, 80-85weight gear oil.
 
Welcome jay. I am learning a lot here. I had trouble with 3rd in the 81 Pontiac Phoenix I had. There was a fiddly adjustment in the shifter I had to make a few times to stop the grinding. Might check your book. If you don't have a good book, try http://www.factoryautomanuals.com/. A big thanks again to 9c1 who posted that link hours after I posed a request. Just the sort of great stuff you find here.

GM manual transmissions I have owned and lube type:

77 Chevy LUV------------Same grade motor oil as engine
81 Pontiac Phoenix-------AFT
92 Pontiac Grand AM----GM Synchromesh
02 Chevy Cavalier--------AFT

My boss once sent me to a quick lube place with his 89 S-10. They didn't have a clue what to top up the 5 speed with.

I went through my shop manuals for the 2 Pontiacs. I didn't see anything about an oil pump in the transmission. The Grand AM had the NVT550. I wondered how modern transmissions can get by with such light oils. An oil pump doesn't seem to be the answer for them.
 
funny you say that you pinpointed the grinding to adjustments of the shifter...i just recently bought a shortshifter, although it is a complete replacement for the stock unit and not just an adaptor...perhaps i will throw the stock unit back in and see if theres any difference
 
I'm running synchromesh right now in my t56, so far very good results. Prior to the change, I was looking at tranny/gear fluid viscosities.
Factory fill for me was mobil-1 atf, viscosity of that is 35/7.6 cSt at 40/100C. I too put a short throw shifter (hurst) in and found it harder to shift, but there was a problem getting into 2nd and downshifting from 6th-5th under easy driving conditions with the stock shifter. And my car is a 2002 SS, less than 10k miles. So I still need to throw the stock shifter on to give the synchromesh a fair evaluation.

I got a pdf tech paper from quaker state website on their synchromesh- says meets gm part# 12345349 (spec# 9985648 this is "GM synchromesh") or GM part# 12345577.
Havoline, quaker state/pennzoil are all making synchromesh fluid now and I'm sure it's all the same stuff just different labeling.
Viscosity is 41.6/9.08 cSt at 40/100C; SUS is 209.4/56.7 at 100/210F. So the synchromesh is in the 30wt motor oil range.
Some more numbers:
Redline D4atf is 33.5/7.4 cSt, and amsoil atf is similar I believe. redline hi-temp atf is 53.9/10.0cSt; MTL is 50.8/10.2cSt and MT90 is 89.2/14.7cSt. redline 75w90ns which redline recommends for some gearboxes (maybe yours?) is 92/14.8cSt.

Those who use synchromesh in the T56 6speed report good results and I think it's mostly due to the higher viscosity. And those who use MTL also report good results, again synchromesh & mtl similar viscosities- basically a little higher than the atf's.

I don't know anything about honda gearboxes, especially those that say to use motor oil. I wonder what effect motor oil would have in my t56 (a synchromesh 6-speed gearbox)? In any event, being your car is old it's very possible the synchro is bad and no fluid will fix the problem but I would say give the synchromesh fluid a try if it looks like it meets your gearbox specs. hope this helps.


PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
QUAKER STATE® SYNCHROMESH FLUID is a synchromesh transmission fluid designed for certain manual transaxles and manual transmissions used by General Motors or Chrysler. QUAKER STATE® SYNCHROMESH FLUID is formulated with high quality paraffinic base stocks, a fluidity modifier, multifunctional performance additives, corrosion inhibitors, a foam suppressor and a shear stable viscosity index improver additive. It provides excellent oxidation stability, low temperature performance, excellent synchronizer performance and compatibility with yellow metals, such as bronze, brass and copper components found in manual transaxles and transmissions. This product will satisfactorily lubricate General Motors or Chrysler manual transaxles and transmissions from -40°C to +150°C.
APPLICATION
QUAKER STATE® SYNCHROMESH FLUID is specifically formulated for synchromesh transmissions used by General Motors requiring General Motors Part No. 12345349 (Specification No. 9985648) Synchromesh Transmission Fluid or Chrysler transmissions requiring Part No. 4874464 (Specification MS-9224). It is also recommended for use in General Motor transmissions requiring General Motors Part No. 12345577. It is listed in the Pennzoil Lubrication Recommendation And Capacities Guide as “GLS.” QUAKER STATE® SYNCHROMESH FLUID is NOT intended for all GLS applications. You must verify the manufacturer’s part number, indicated by a superscript number and found at the end of the vehicle application listing.
BENEFITS
• Exhibits excellent low temperature performance
• Meets GM Specification 9985648
• Suitable for use in GM manual transaxles and transmissions requiring GM part number 12345349 or 12345577.
• Meets Chrysler specification MS-9224
• Suitable for use in Chrylser transaxles and transmissions requiring part no. 4874464
• Excellent synchronizer performance
• Excellent yellow metal compatibility
 
jay, i suspect that youll need to replace those syncros. the thrid gear is always the first to grind on honda transmission. it happened in my s20 honda tranny and its starting to act up in my y21 honda tranny when i shift in high rpms. i think that no matter what tranny oil you use, itll only mask the problem.

edit: typo

[ May 19, 2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: oilcanboyd ]
 
Since Honda transmissions require 5w30 or 10w30 motor oil, is there any downside to using MTL? I know that they are similar weight-wise, but are any of the GL-4 additives in the MTL bad for the transmission?

My Isuzu actually calls for 5w30 or 10w30 synthetic motor oil in the user's manual. Should I stick with that or go with MTL when I change my tranny fluid in a couple of weeks?
 
I posted a VOA of Redline's MTL and MT-90 in:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000104

and MTL is a 5W30 viscosity with none of the more aggressive EP adds contained in the GL5 lubes.

I would say that MTL could be used as a replacement for the Honda fluid.

IF the GM Synchromesh I and II's are indeed 15W50's, then I would also think that Redline MT-90 could be used as a replacement for the GM Synchromesh I and II's.
 
quote:

Originally posted by oilcanboyd:
jay, i suspect that youll need to replace those syncros. the thrid gear is always the first to grind on honda transmission. it happened in my s20 honda tranny and its starting to act up in my y21 honda tranny when i shift in high rpms. i think that no matter what tranny oil you use, itll only mask the problem.

edit: typo


I agree..however,IMHO if there is one fluid that will help,it`s the GM Synchromesh...
 
Intresting. My S1 tranny doesn't have any grinds, but shifting isn't as smooth as I'd like it to be. I'm currently running 5w30 motor oil and i'll be switching to Pennzoil synchromesh in the next few days.

One odd thing that I have noticed about my tranny is a very quiet decelleration whine.. hopefully the Synchromesh quiets that down as well.
 
GM Synchromesh is a bit too thin for the Honda Manual trannies.

Try our MTL-P which has the correct viscosity for Honda MT's.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top