Lets have a detailed technical discussion about coolant

Status
Not open for further replies.
So, if a manufacturer changes specs, is it safe to use the newer spec? In my case, could I, or should I put the newer blue Subaru coolant in a 2007 ( these things have known head gasket issues ), and likewise, the newest yellow Ford coolant in a 2015 3.5 EB? Ford says if your orange Ford coolant has clogged/corroded your heater core, you SHOULD change to Corguard (why not yellow Ford??), along with replacing the heater core) but they won't change it for you unless it exhibits certain problems before 36k; after that very expensive out of your pocket, despite TSB. They have not back-spec'd yellow coolant for 2015's as far as I know. And then both manufacturers say never mix coolant types. Sort of contradicts the "universal" theory.
 
Originally Posted by Impatient
So, if a manufacturer changes specs, is it safe to use the newer spec? In my case, could I, or should I put the newer blue Subaru coolant in a 2007 ( these things have known head gasket issues )..
In the case of the Suby , yes if you want to. The newer blue premix is a long life, long service interval PHOAT as opposed to the older green which was a shorter interval AF. Looking at Suby forums, Subaru has said the newer blue is backward compatible. Toyota (pink SLL for red) and Nissan (blue LL for green) did the same for their AFs. The Suby head gasket issues afaik unrelated to the AF used.

Quote
...and likewise, the newest yellow Ford coolant in a 2015 3.5 EB? Ford says if your orange Ford coolant has clogged/corroded your heater core, you SHOULD change to Corguard (why not yellow Ford??), along with replacing the heater core) but they won't change it for you unless it exhibits certain problems before 36k; after that very expensive out of your pocket, despite TSB. They have not back-spec'd yellow coolant for 2015's as far as I know. And then both manufacturers say never mix coolant types. Sort of contradicts the "universal" theory.
With some googling effort I was able to find the specific noted Ford TSB, and currently it only specifies ONE Ford model vehicle, the 2015-2018 Transit. https://ford.oemdtc.com/TSB/18-2172.pdf

As for the 'new' (D)Yellow Motorcraft AF, currently it's only spec'd for the newest Ford trucks, Econoline, Transit and Expedition/Navigator. As noted the current MC AF chart indicates it's not back spec'd for anything. Until or unless that changes, I would NOT assume anything else to be true including using it older Ford Orange or older Yellow AF spec vehicles. Nor 'at this point' would I assume that the current Prestone labeled AF should or could be used in place Motorcraft Orange (dex) or the new D-Yellow AF. In other words, until more definitive info out there I wouldn't assume anything beyond the specific tsb reference.

It does make me wonder if this is more a Ford/Ford Transit heater core manufacturing issue, than an AF issue. Also wonder what the D prefix Yellow Motorcraft AF stands for. Maybe Dark Yellow? The other "Yellow" is G-05, they call MC Gold is more a light Yellow/Gold tint. With this latest AF addition to the Motorcraft line Ford AF is
crazy2.gif
. I thought they were set with the Orange Dex AF, apparently not.
 
I'm going to go against the coolant gurus here. I use SuperTech 5 year 150k mile pre-mix in everything I own. Even changed out the Ford "special" coolant in the Ranger years ago with this stuff. I use test strips to tell me when to change (used to change it every 3 years but thought that was wasteful). I'm at 4 years now and all looks good except the Ranger which is starting to show it's age (test strips) No problems with water pumps, radiators, heater cores, freeze plugs, etc.
 
So which type causes the least wear on water pump seals? I have a 2015 Ford Taurus 3.5, with the internal water pump, which is why I ask. It has had Motorcraft orange since new.
 
Originally Posted by neo3
So which type causes the least wear on water pump seals? I have a 2015 Ford Taurus 3.5, with the internal water pump, which is why I ask. It has had Motorcraft orange since new.


Silicate containing coolants have been blamed for wear on seals, but it seems newer studies have found that not to be true.
 
Honda has issued a TSB in the past, that documented much less coolant leaking when their nonsilicated coolant was used; and a group called Motorcycle Consumer News took reports from their members Honda bikes, and saw that 99% of the water pump failures were from people using silicated coolants.

I'm aware that (some) European makers have taken a different approach, and are keen on eliminated phosphates. Perhaps their tests have shown different results.

Originally Posted by FordCapriDriver

Silicate containing coolants have been blamed for wear on seals, but it seems newer studies have found that not to be true.
 
Originally Posted by Sayjac


As an aside Prestone has also come out with two AFs, one labeled for Toyota (red/pink tint) and one labeled for Honda ( blue tint) . Both contain 2eha so neither matches the Toyota or Honda AF PHOAT 'type' chemistry currently spec'd. Based on that, I wouldn't recommend it for either application or any Asian vehicle.

Toyota has a loose definition in the owner's manual saying that a similar product with low acids and phosphates can be used if Toyota SLLC is not available.

I came across a sales presentation from Prestone - they are pushing the Cor-Guard formula hard with the OEMs, and looks like Toyota and Subaru are their two biggest targets. I posted the PDFs in another thread here. If that's true, despite the 2-EHA chemistry that doesn't play nice with some polymers, Prestone Cor-Guard might be the best "universal" coolant to service both Dex-Cool(GM and Ford) and Japanese pHOAT applications. I think the Japanese use sebacate for the OAT part of their newer coolants.

According to Wikipedia, sebacates are also used as plasticizers, so in theory 2-EHA and the Na/K-bound neodecanate salts found in Dex-Cool/Clone can mix together with a Japanese SLLC.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by Sayjac
…..As an aside Prestone has also come out with two AFs, one labeled for Toyota (red/pink tint) and one labeled for Honda ( blue tint) . Both contain 2eha so neither matches the Toyota or Honda AF PHOAT 'type' chemistry currently spec'd. Based on that, I wouldn't recommend it for either application or any Asian vehicle.
Toyota has a loose definition in the owner's manual saying that a similar product with low acids and phosphates can be used if Toyota SLLC is not available….
First bullet point for Toyota AF, SLLC . Second a high quality AF, with similar attributes. I suppose the second leaves open some interpretation however I know SLL pink does not contain 2eha found in DexCool, and as noted not found in any true Asian PHOAT. Same goes for Honda Type 2, Nissan LL and Subaru LLSC, no 2eha.

As for use of sebacate in SLL, whatever it may be/do in speculative theory or otherwise, clearly it doesn't have the notorious track record of 2eha in Dex and thus to this point avoided by the true Asian PHoat AFs. Never seen proof other OEM PHOATs using sebacate. However if they did/do, I'd trust them more than Prestone which at this point has no confirmed use as an OEM AF including but not limited to the PHOATs

Plus, with all the readily available true Asian PHOATS out there, eg., WM Valv Asian Vehicle in pink/ red and blue, ZAF and Pentosin, imo no need to roll the dice on a faux PHOAT with 2eha, or Prestone "Universal".

That said, if one is comfortable using the new Prestone for Toyota/Honda AF faux PHoat or Prestone Universal with 2eha in a Toyota or other Asian vehicle, thier call. I'll pass.
 
Originally Posted by Sayjac

Quote
...and likewise, the newest yellow Ford coolant in a 2015 3.5 EB? Ford says if your orange Ford coolant has clogged/corroded your heater core, you SHOULD change to Corguard (why not yellow Ford??), along with replacing the heater core) but they won't change it for you unless it exhibits certain problems before 36k; after that very expensive out of your pocket, despite TSB. They have not back-spec'd yellow coolant for 2015's as far as I know. And then both manufacturers say never mix coolant types. Sort of contradicts the "universal" theory.
With some googling effort I was able to find the specific noted Ford TSB, and currently it only specifies ONE Ford model vehicle, the 2015-2018 Transit. https://ford.oemdtc.com/TSB/18-2172.pdf

As for the 'new' (D)Yellow Motorcraft AF, currently it's only spec'd for the newest Ford trucks, Econoline, Transit and Expedition/Navigator. As noted the current MC AF chart indicates it's not back spec'd for anything. Until or unless that changes, I would NOT assume anything else to be true including using it older Ford Orange or older Yellow AF spec vehicles. Nor 'at this point' would I assume that the current Prestone labeled AF should or could be used in place Motorcraft Orange (dex) or the new D-Yellow AF. In other words, until more definitive info out there I wouldn't assume anything beyond the specific tsb reference.

It does make me wonder if this is more a Ford/Ford Transit heater core manufacturing issue, than an AF issue. Also wonder what the D prefix Yellow Motorcraft AF stands for. Maybe Dark Yellow? The other "Yellow" is G-05, they call MC Gold is more a light Yellow/Gold tint. With this latest AF addition to the Motorcraft line Ford AF is
crazy2.gif
. I thought they were set with the Orange Dex AF, apparently not.


crazy2.gif
indeed

I haven't looked for it, but I read somewhere there is a similar TSB for Ford F-150 EB's, so maybe not Transit-only.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Impatient


I haven't looked for it, but I read somewhere there is a similar TSB for Ford F-150 EB's, so maybe not Transit-only.

Paging bdcardinal, paging bdcardinal.
 
Originally Posted by Impatient
Originally Posted by Sayjac

Quote
...and likewise, the newest yellow Ford coolant in a 2015 3.5 EB? Ford says if your orange Ford coolant has clogged/corroded your heater core, you SHOULD change to Corguard (why not yellow Ford??), along with replacing the heater core) but they won't change it for you unless it exhibits certain problems before 36k; after that very expensive out of your pocket, despite TSB. They have not back-spec'd yellow coolant for 2015's as far as I know. And then both manufacturers say never mix coolant types. Sort of contradicts the "universal" theory.
With some googling effort I was able to find the specific noted Ford TSB, and currently it only specifies ONE Ford model vehicle, the 2015-2018 Transit. https://ford.oemdtc.com/TSB/18-2172.pdf

As for the 'new' (D)Yellow Motorcraft AF, currently it's only spec'd for the newest Ford trucks, Econoline, Transit and Expedition/Navigator. As noted the current MC AF chart indicates it's not back spec'd for anything. Until or unless that changes, I would NOT assume anything else to be true including using it older Ford Orange or older Yellow AF spec vehicles. Nor 'at this point' would I assume that the current Prestone labeled AF should or could be used in place Motorcraft Orange (dex) or the new D-Yellow AF. In other words, until more definitive info out there I wouldn't assume anything beyond the specific tsb reference.

It does make me wonder if this is more a Ford/Ford Transit heater core manufacturing issue, than an AF issue. Also wonder what the D prefix Yellow Motorcraft AF stands for. Maybe Dark Yellow? The other "Yellow" is G-05, they call MC Gold is more a light Yellow/Gold tint. With this latest AF addition to the Motorcraft line Ford AF is
crazy2.gif
. I thought they were set with the Orange Dex AF, apparently not.


crazy2.gif
indeed

I haven't looked for it, but I read somewhere there is a similar TSB for Ford F-150 EB's, so maybe not Transit-only.



Look at post 12 here. I am in a cold climate and am getting mine switched over Friday.

https://www.f150forum.com/f118/2019-f150s-have-new-coolant-starting-december-2018-a-424735/index2/
 
^^^^ Read both F150 forum TSBs, and those are different than the specific Transit TSB in both condition applicable and recommended AF to be used. While all are heater core related, both F150 TSBs qualify condition with low outdoor temp (-20 C/4F) operation and specify new Motorcraft DY Yellow AF not Prestone like the Transit TSB. Only difference I see between two F150 TSBs is w and w/o block heater designation.

So again, not assuming anything beyond specific TSB's is what I would follow at this point.

Still does lead me to ponder if this more a Ford heater core issue. However, seemingly it is Motorcraft Orange Dex that is the AF being recommended for change over in Ford Truck/SUV application TSBs. Like I said, recent FoMoCo MC AF recommendations now
crazy2.gif
 
I read the Prestone Corguard "Ford Fusion" study that was linked by BigD1 earlier in this thread:

'Internal Ford Fusion Fleet Test'

This latest Prestone formula does seem to be an improvement over regular Dexcool….I'm wondering if Ford switched from Orange to Yellow because of something negative they found with Orange? Both my 2016 Escape and 2014 Focus call for Ford Orange and I haven't decided what to use when it's time to change (which is soon on the Focus). I have Peak Global and Pentosin A2 P-HOAT in my stock along with a gallon of Prestone Dexcool (which I'll probably use in the Focus because I need more than 1 gallon for the Escape)….I also have a gallon of OEM blue from Pepboys....decisions...decisions...
 
Originally Posted by pbm
I read the Prestone Corguard "Ford Fusion" study that was linked by BigD1 earlier in this thread:

'Internal Ford Fusion Fleet Test'

This latest Prestone formula does seem to be an improvement over regular Dexcool….I'm wondering if Ford switched from Orange to Yellow because of something negative they found with Orange? Both my 2016 Escape and 2014 Focus call for Ford Orange and I haven't decided what to use when it's time to change (which is soon on the Focus). I have Peak Global and Pentosin A2 P-HOAT in my stock along with a gallon of Prestone Dexcool (which I'll probably use in the Focus because I need more than 1 gallon for the Escape)….I also have a gallon of OEM blue from Pepboys....decisions...decisions...

I did my reading and it looks like Prestone Corguard is a pHOAT, and they are pushing it hard with the OEMs. Ford might be their biggest win and it's called for in a TSB for the Transit if one loses heat.

I'd use what you have IMO. It's better to use up hazmat if you're able to do so.
 
I have been using Prestone Corguard since it came out round about early 2015.

I have a 1990 Volvo 240 with copper/brass radiator. Round about early Spring 2015 I used some Prestone radiator flush, and then filled and drained a few times with tap water. My Volvo does have a very easy to use and access block drain plus I removed the thermostat.

It's been at least 3.5 years now, and the coolant looks the same as the day I put it in. Still looks like new coolant in the reservoir. The reservoir is not pressurized, but coolant from the radiator is always mixing inside the reservoir during cold and hot cycles.
 
Since the topic of "universal" AF broached, there is one AF that I would have no problem running in any of my vehicles, Peak Global Lifetime (PGL) Concentrate. A long service interval OAT AF with no 2eha. That's makes it unique from the other "universal" AF's which contain 2eha found in Dex and includes the current Prestone varieties. Means one can run it for the 'true' Asian Phoat applications with no 2eha as well as, the DexCool OAT applications. And only one close to same attributes as Mopar OAT AF with no 2eha.

I've been running it in place of Toyota red (now pink) Phoat for almost 5 years in an older Tacoma still original radiator. I have noticed the concentrate seems to be getting a tad pricey at ~$20/gallon at Napa. However that still makes it equivalent priced to the ~$10/gal premixes, which the Asian Phoats aftermarket and OEM are generally speaking more expensive than that. Plus the benefits of using a concentrate for a full system exchange, ease of a distilled water flush series.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top