Is Crued Oil a Fosil Fuel or is it abiotic
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OK...now 7,000 year oldpreserved bodies in peat bogs, and the transition of bogs to coal.
Your premise was that aerobic, or anaerobic, it would ALL decay, and therefore must have been placed there somehow.
The peat bogs are too acidic to decay, or have the bodies/butter in them decay...same for the plant matter until it's covered over in sedimentary rocks...and becomes coal.
Or do you propose another mechanism for the biological origin of coal ?
Your premise was that aerobic, or anaerobic, it would ALL decay, and therefore must have been placed there somehow.
The peat bogs are too acidic to decay, or have the bodies/butter in them decay...same for the plant matter until it's covered over in sedimentary rocks...and becomes coal.
Or do you propose another mechanism for the biological origin of coal ?
Turning a blind eye to the heat involved in these geologic processes to obtain petroleum and coal exceeding levels of the most thermophilic bacteria ever found is an interesting facet from someone who declares the term fossil fuel to somehow be linked to religion, not to mention the time frames involved to convert the material to petroleum and coal from a dead mouse.
MolaKule
Staff member
Who would've thunk theories of coal formation would change?
Coalification Topic
companion article:
Paleoclimatology
Coalification Topic
companion article:
Paleoclimatology
So what honestly changed?
Besides the obvious atmospheric C14/C12 ratio in the Industrial Age I mean.
Besides the obvious atmospheric C14/C12 ratio in the Industrial Age I mean.
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Turning a blind eye to the heat involved in these geologic processes to obtain petroleum and coal exceeding levels of the most thermophilic bacteria ever found is an interesting facet from someone who declares the term fossil fuel to somehow be linked to religion, not to mention the time frames involved to convert the material to petroleum and coal from a dead mouse.
Heat from compression?
Turning a blind eye to the heat involved in these geologic processes to obtain petroleum and coal exceeding levels of the most thermophilic bacteria ever found is an interesting facet from someone who declares the term fossil fuel to somehow be linked to religion, not to mention the time frames involved to convert the material to petroleum and coal from a dead mouse.
Heat from compression?
Also the deeper you drill or mine, the hotter the temperatures. Diamond mining in South Africa is a sweaty endeavor. Mankind has not yet reached the Mohorovicic Discontinuity, so everything associated with it is educated conjecture. Data on the mantle is not forsthand, magma etc is limited to vulcanology, we honestly have no firsthand data deeper than the earth's crust.
I've seen numerous explanations; decay of concentrated radioactive material, residual energy from cosmic collisions, etc. Three main theories are the most in vogue.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-is-the-earths-core-so/
We are fortunate that the Earth's crust slides over the mantle rather than sinking below it; most materials are at highest density in solid form. Another part of the question of the Mohorovicic Discontinuity. Water is a notable exception, if its solid form was more dense than liquid form rivers, lakes, and oceans would freeze from the bottom up instead of top down, which wouldn't be beneficial to most higher life forms we know of.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-is-the-earths-core-so/
We are fortunate that the Earth's crust slides over the mantle rather than sinking below it; most materials are at highest density in solid form. Another part of the question of the Mohorovicic Discontinuity. Water is a notable exception, if its solid form was more dense than liquid form rivers, lakes, and oceans would freeze from the bottom up instead of top down, which wouldn't be beneficial to most higher life forms we know of.
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
... Water is a notable exception, if its solid form was more dense than liquid form rivers, lakes, and oceans would freeze from the bottom up instead of top down, which wouldn't be beneficial to most higher life forms we know of.
That has to do with another peculiarity of water, that its liquid phase is less dense just above its freezing point than it is when a little warmer (~4ºC). Therefore the coldest water floats on top before freezing there.
... Water is a notable exception, if its solid form was more dense than liquid form rivers, lakes, and oceans would freeze from the bottom up instead of top down, which wouldn't be beneficial to most higher life forms we know of.
That has to do with another peculiarity of water, that its liquid phase is less dense just above its freezing point than it is when a little warmer (~4ºC). Therefore the coldest water floats on top before freezing there.
Yes, and water has a triple point at 0.01°C, where solid, liquid, and vapor phases all simultaneously exist.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Shannow
and to hear of your personal observations.
My recollections were of a surface coal mine in which they used Draglines.
I would describe most of the coal as being bituminous and some sub-bituminous and interspersed with lignite.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but can I guess that you're primarily talking about Western KY coal fields?
I know a bit more about Eastern KY coal. Of course, some is surface, and surface mining in Eastern KY primarily takes the form of the political hot-button topic(at least locally) that gets called "mountaintop removal." Even though folks like Wendell Berry have made me avoid wanting to use that terminology(it's too politically loaded), it's at least a pretty accurate description of what's going on. Of course, there are also plenty of deep mines, although for a variety of reasons they are mostly on the decline.
Just as a few observations, though-I've never seen any Eastern KY coal that I'd describe as being anything close to sub-bituminous, much less lignite. All the samples that I've seen/handled, both from operational mines and even just the random coal seem a few feet tall that you see in a road cut are pretty firmly in what I'd consider the bituminous category. Some especially nice seams in the far eastern part of the state(bordering Va and WVa) are still bit, but are some of the highest grade bit I've seen and are probably bordering on low grade anthracite.
In any case, I think it's interesting to note that most Appalachian deep mines-not just in Kentucky but extending into WVa and Va-are considered to be fairly "gassy." Methane explosions are not unheard of, and deep mines tend to be vented like crazy to try and keep the methane levels safe.
Originally Posted by Shannow
and to hear of your personal observations.
My recollections were of a surface coal mine in which they used Draglines.
I would describe most of the coal as being bituminous and some sub-bituminous and interspersed with lignite.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but can I guess that you're primarily talking about Western KY coal fields?
I know a bit more about Eastern KY coal. Of course, some is surface, and surface mining in Eastern KY primarily takes the form of the political hot-button topic(at least locally) that gets called "mountaintop removal." Even though folks like Wendell Berry have made me avoid wanting to use that terminology(it's too politically loaded), it's at least a pretty accurate description of what's going on. Of course, there are also plenty of deep mines, although for a variety of reasons they are mostly on the decline.
Just as a few observations, though-I've never seen any Eastern KY coal that I'd describe as being anything close to sub-bituminous, much less lignite. All the samples that I've seen/handled, both from operational mines and even just the random coal seem a few feet tall that you see in a road cut are pretty firmly in what I'd consider the bituminous category. Some especially nice seams in the far eastern part of the state(bordering Va and WVa) are still bit, but are some of the highest grade bit I've seen and are probably bordering on low grade anthracite.
In any case, I think it's interesting to note that most Appalachian deep mines-not just in Kentucky but extending into WVa and Va-are considered to be fairly "gassy." Methane explosions are not unheard of, and deep mines tend to be vented like crazy to try and keep the methane levels safe.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by bunnspecial
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Shannow
and to hear of your personal observations.
My recollections were of a surface coal mine in which they used Draglines.
I would describe most of the coal as being bituminous and some sub-bituminous and interspersed with lignite.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but can I guess that you're primarily talking about Western KY coal fields?
Yes, in fact it was Muhlenburg County, KY.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Shannow
and to hear of your personal observations.
My recollections were of a surface coal mine in which they used Draglines.
I would describe most of the coal as being bituminous and some sub-bituminous and interspersed with lignite.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but can I guess that you're primarily talking about Western KY coal fields?
Yes, in fact it was Muhlenburg County, KY.
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Also the deeper you drill or mine, the hotter the temperatures. Diamond mining in South Africa is a sweaty endeavor. Mankind has not yet reached the Mohorovicic Discontinuity, so everything associated with it is educated conjecture. Data on the mantle is not forsthand, magma etc is limited to vulcanology, we honestly have no firsthand data deeper than the earth's crust.
The Mantle is still theory from what I have read? Of course, we were never told in school that it was theory. The Russian drilled approx: 40,000 feet or 7.5 miles (Kola Superdeep Borehole). Which is the deepest borehole drilled. That we know of anyway. I recently read that there are more oceans 200 miles below earth's crust. More oil?
It is easier for humans to leave the planet outwards than inwards. Very interesting when you think about it. We know more about the moon than our own earth. Especially our Oceans. Scientist are still finding new species of life.
Also the deeper you drill or mine, the hotter the temperatures. Diamond mining in South Africa is a sweaty endeavor. Mankind has not yet reached the Mohorovicic Discontinuity, so everything associated with it is educated conjecture. Data on the mantle is not forsthand, magma etc is limited to vulcanology, we honestly have no firsthand data deeper than the earth's crust.
The Mantle is still theory from what I have read? Of course, we were never told in school that it was theory. The Russian drilled approx: 40,000 feet or 7.5 miles (Kola Superdeep Borehole). Which is the deepest borehole drilled. That we know of anyway. I recently read that there are more oceans 200 miles below earth's crust. More oil?
It is easier for humans to leave the planet outwards than inwards. Very interesting when you think about it. We know more about the moon than our own earth. Especially our Oceans. Scientist are still finding new species of life.
If you read my post I stated data on the mantle is not first hand and I stated we have no firsthand knowledge beyond the earth's crust - copied into your post when you used the "Quote" feature. Not sure about your question, can you clarify?
Any alternate explanations for vulcanism you care to post up? There are substances defined as where the ocean floor met the mantle long ago, now upthrust to where they can be studied by us.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiolite
The Kola hole is more recent and deeper than the depths reached by the effort Project Mohole in the mid-20th century. However Project Mohole targeted an area thought to have better accessability to the Mohorovicic Discontinuity. Kola made it an estimated on third of the way through the earth's crust at it's site, Mohole never went past the test hole phase. Both projects died through bureaucracy (breakup of the USSR for Kola, shuffling of control and lack of further Congressional funding for Mohole). Mohole at least spun off valuable technology for offshore oil exploration, not sure of any commercial benefits from Kola.
Any alternate explanations for vulcanism you care to post up? There are substances defined as where the ocean floor met the mantle long ago, now upthrust to where they can be studied by us.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiolite
The Kola hole is more recent and deeper than the depths reached by the effort Project Mohole in the mid-20th century. However Project Mohole targeted an area thought to have better accessability to the Mohorovicic Discontinuity. Kola made it an estimated on third of the way through the earth's crust at it's site, Mohole never went past the test hole phase. Both projects died through bureaucracy (breakup of the USSR for Kola, shuffling of control and lack of further Congressional funding for Mohole). Mohole at least spun off valuable technology for offshore oil exploration, not sure of any commercial benefits from Kola.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by bunnspecial
Originally Posted by MolaKule
My recollections were of a surface coal mine in which they used Draglines. ...
I don't have a dog in the fight, but can I guess that you're primarily talking about Western KY coal fields?
Yes, in fact it was Muhlenburg County, KY.
Aha! The first ~7 years of my life, my family lived in a section of nearby Daviess County that was then being strip-mined all around us---long before any pretense of reclamation was required. My parents sold the farm to another farmer, who soon sold out to the coal company, like all the other neighbors. As a child, I was highly impressed by the "draglines."
Originally Posted by bunnspecial
Originally Posted by MolaKule
My recollections were of a surface coal mine in which they used Draglines. ...
I don't have a dog in the fight, but can I guess that you're primarily talking about Western KY coal fields?
Yes, in fact it was Muhlenburg County, KY.
Aha! The first ~7 years of my life, my family lived in a section of nearby Daviess County that was then being strip-mined all around us---long before any pretense of reclamation was required. My parents sold the farm to another farmer, who soon sold out to the coal company, like all the other neighbors. As a child, I was highly impressed by the "draglines."
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