Busting the engine break-in myth... debunked!
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Yeah big shock. I've been saying that for years. In both cases, the parts are rubbing against each other in the exact same fashion. Only difference is the rate of break in "should" be higher on the wide open throttle method. But so what, in either case, they both end in the same place with the high spots worn off.
If there was ever an ancedotal, mystical, black magic issue, it has to be engine break in. What would be interesting is to conduct the same study with more units and under more controlled conditions.
If there was ever an ancedotal, mystical, black magic issue, it has to be engine break in. What would be interesting is to conduct the same study with more units and under more controlled conditions.
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gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
No UOA, no care!
The article is a little misleading in how the two bikes were ridden.
Bike 1: Low speed urban riding without much throttle, but I assume lots of accelerating and engine braking.
Bike 2: Lots of throttle but high speed droning? Come on! I like that they beat on it when it was cold though, I'm not sure I would do that.
I thought the Mototune break in was about lots of throttle (not necessarily WOT) and engine braking to help seat the rings. Not just flying around pinning it everywhere.
I think a better test would be:
Bike 1: Urban bike driven aggressively without throttle constraints
Bike 2: Low load situations like cruising on the highway at part throttle for long periods and limited engine braking.
Bike 1: Low speed urban riding without much throttle, but I assume lots of accelerating and engine braking.
Bike 2: Lots of throttle but high speed droning? Come on! I like that they beat on it when it was cold though, I'm not sure I would do that.
I thought the Mototune break in was about lots of throttle (not necessarily WOT) and engine braking to help seat the rings. Not just flying around pinning it everywhere.
I think a better test would be:
Bike 1: Urban bike driven aggressively without throttle constraints
Bike 2: Low load situations like cruising on the highway at part throttle for long periods and limited engine braking.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Originally Posted by gathermewool
No UOA, no care!
Right … and I'd add it's a black box world … not just car engines … even outboard motors have both a black box (and an owners manual) these days …
I follow it by finding me some sleepy backroads with a country cafe along the way … let the hills and curves help with the break in process …
I'm back to early fluids dumps … have a reason again …
No UOA, no care!
Right … and I'd add it's a black box world … not just car engines … even outboard motors have both a black box (and an owners manual) these days …
I follow it by finding me some sleepy backroads with a country cafe along the way … let the hills and curves help with the break in process …
I'm back to early fluids dumps … have a reason again …
My new 2018 Hyundai Kona AWD 1.6T manual says it is broken in after 600 miles. Finally a correct number. I was loading rings even before that.
Originally Posted by gathermewool
No UOA, no care!
Why would you want them? Not only don't they really measure wear (they used real wear measurements in this article, despite it being a rather small two sample study), engines breaking in no matter what are going to have messy UOAs.
No UOA, no care!
Why would you want them? Not only don't they really measure wear (they used real wear measurements in this article, despite it being a rather small two sample study), engines breaking in no matter what are going to have messy UOAs.
What about oil consumption?
Slightly wider end gap (difference even being measurable says enough) after a couple thousand miles, who's argument does that support? Are they sure it supports their conclusion? How shall we interpret that?
Is it overall wear around the entire circumference of the ring (ie normal wear and tear after just a few thousand miles assuming the ring was fully perfectly seated at assembly) or has the ring snugged up (worn in) more flush in the 'brutal' engine's bore? I'd have a hard time accepting the former...
Slightly wider end gap (difference even being measurable says enough) after a couple thousand miles, who's argument does that support? Are they sure it supports their conclusion? How shall we interpret that?
Is it overall wear around the entire circumference of the ring (ie normal wear and tear after just a few thousand miles assuming the ring was fully perfectly seated at assembly) or has the ring snugged up (worn in) more flush in the 'brutal' engine's bore? I'd have a hard time accepting the former...
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by gathermewool
No UOA, no care!
Why would you want them? Not only don't they really measure wear (they used real wear measurements in this article, despite it being a rather small two sample study), engines breaking in no matter what are going to have messy UOAs.
Garak … WTH are you doing … trying to displace O/K as the voice of reason here? … All good either way …
Originally Posted by gathermewool
No UOA, no care!
Why would you want them? Not only don't they really measure wear (they used real wear measurements in this article, despite it being a rather small two sample study), engines breaking in no matter what are going to have messy UOAs.
Garak … WTH are you doing … trying to displace O/K as the voice of reason here? … All good either way …
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Originally Posted by gathermewool
No UOA, no care!
What value would a UOA have at this low mileage especially one with a shared sump ? Shared sump engines can and many times do produce horrific UOA's, its the nature of the beast, all it takes is couple of bum shifts during an OCI.
A UOA would have zero value other than for TBN, coolant and fuel dilution in the engine they used.
No UOA, no care!
What value would a UOA have at this low mileage especially one with a shared sump ? Shared sump engines can and many times do produce horrific UOA's, its the nature of the beast, all it takes is couple of bum shifts during an OCI.
A UOA would have zero value other than for TBN, coolant and fuel dilution in the engine they used.
Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
What about oil consumption?
Slightly wider end gap (difference even being measurable says enough) after a couple thousand miles, who's argument does that support? Are they sure it supports their conclusion? How shall we interpret that?
Is it overall wear around the entire circumference of the ring (ie normal wear and tear after just a few thousand miles assuming the ring was fully perfectly seated at assembly) or has the ring snugged up (worn in) more flush in the 'brutal' engine's bore? I'd have a hard time accepting the former...
just because one motor showed more wear at 1000 miles does not prove the overall break in is better.....maybe it's just a bit faster. I am of the belief that every motor will get to the same place in time.
What about oil consumption?
Slightly wider end gap (difference even being measurable says enough) after a couple thousand miles, who's argument does that support? Are they sure it supports their conclusion? How shall we interpret that?
Is it overall wear around the entire circumference of the ring (ie normal wear and tear after just a few thousand miles assuming the ring was fully perfectly seated at assembly) or has the ring snugged up (worn in) more flush in the 'brutal' engine's bore? I'd have a hard time accepting the former...
just because one motor showed more wear at 1000 miles does not prove the overall break in is better.....maybe it's just a bit faster. I am of the belief that every motor will get to the same place in time.
Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
What about oil consumption?
I doubt they have the bike long enough to get enough data for that. They also missed out on the dyno comparison.
What about oil consumption?
I doubt they have the bike long enough to get enough data for that. They also missed out on the dyno comparison.
Originally Posted by maxdustington
I thought the Mototune break in was about lots of throttle (not necessarily WOT) and engine braking to help seat the rings. Not just flying around pinning it everywhere.
You'd be correct.
On an anecdotal note back in the early 2000's the BMW M54 became known as an oil consumer and some had opined that it was because the cars had A/T's and were consequently under light load during break in. However the argument was also made that the manual owners were generally comprised of "enthusiasts" and they would change their oil more frequently which hid the oil consumption. Finally there was another hypothesis that all these BMW engines consumed oil because BMW didn't use a torque plate when honing the cylinders and used low tension rings to help with fuel economy.
Who knows?
I thought the Mototune break in was about lots of throttle (not necessarily WOT) and engine braking to help seat the rings. Not just flying around pinning it everywhere.
You'd be correct.
On an anecdotal note back in the early 2000's the BMW M54 became known as an oil consumer and some had opined that it was because the cars had A/T's and were consequently under light load during break in. However the argument was also made that the manual owners were generally comprised of "enthusiasts" and they would change their oil more frequently which hid the oil consumption. Finally there was another hypothesis that all these BMW engines consumed oil because BMW didn't use a torque plate when honing the cylinders and used low tension rings to help with fuel economy.
Who knows?
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I do know that back in my younger days, when Ford's "original" 5.0 Mustangs came out, the ones that lived hard, hard lives from day 1 were almost without fail always the fastest at the dragstrip. The reliability side of the question remained unanswered, as those beating the snot out of them regularly either broke their T5 and sent the RPMs north of 8k, or blew them up adding 250-shots or Vortech blowers with 5" pulleys.
Somehow, my 95 GT managed to live a long happy life with several wheels-up dragstrip launches on the stock T5, stock axles, 26x8" slicks, and full-on powershifts for over 3 years until I sold it. And yes, I'm much wiser now and would never attempt such abusive acts these days for fear of the stock flywheel departing the crankshaft and making me 16-20 inches shorter in a heartbeat
Somehow, my 95 GT managed to live a long happy life with several wheels-up dragstrip launches on the stock T5, stock axles, 26x8" slicks, and full-on powershifts for over 3 years until I sold it. And yes, I'm much wiser now and would never attempt such abusive acts these days for fear of the stock flywheel departing the crankshaft and making me 16-20 inches shorter in a heartbeat
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by gathermewool
No UOA, no care!
What value would a UOA have at this low mileage especially one with a shared sump ? Shared sump engines can and many times do produce horrific UOA's, its the nature of the beast, all it takes is couple of bum shifts during an OCI.
A UOA would have zero value other than for TBN, coolant and fuel dilution in the engine they used.
I'd say so … seems the term break in means you have to give up a wee bit of metal (asperity)
Originally Posted by gathermewool
No UOA, no care!
What value would a UOA have at this low mileage especially one with a shared sump ? Shared sump engines can and many times do produce horrific UOA's, its the nature of the beast, all it takes is couple of bum shifts during an OCI.
A UOA would have zero value other than for TBN, coolant and fuel dilution in the engine they used.
I'd say so … seems the term break in means you have to give up a wee bit of metal (asperity)
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The point is the engine used shares the engine oil with the manually shifted transmission and wet clutch system making it impossible to tell where the iron, copper, etc is actually coming from.
Is it coming from the engine, gears, dogs, bronze bushings, clutch plate and steels, etc?
Is it coming from the engine, gears, dogs, bronze bushings, clutch plate and steels, etc?
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A different take on the MC-Garage video:
4WD, I think your image is how Pangaea was formed...
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