more air flow??

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
1,902
Location
cali
which one of these filters has more air flow?

pannel:
Descriptions : Microlite Panel Air Element

Fits : Honda Accord

Replaces : Honda 17220-PT2-000

Size : 9 9/16 x 5 7/16 x 1 9/16(242.9 x 138.1 x 39.7)

 -


or small cone


Descriptions : Microlite Air Element

Fits : Ford Automotive

Replaces : Ford F4ZZ-9601-A

O.D. : 4 5/8 (117.5) Flange 6 15/32 (164.3)

I.D. : 3 7/32 (81.8) One End

Length : 7 15/16 (201.6)

 -


im planning to retrofit the cone filter into my system. it has a seal thats too big but i can cut that and it will fit in my air box, but i just need to know if there is a flow benifit...if not ill keep a pannel filter...

o and i will not go with baldwin, this is just an example.

thanks!!
 
The minimum flow area (assuming your measurements are of the filter media) for the rectangle is L*W = 52.0 in^2, and for the cone is pi*ID*L = 80.3 in^2. Therefore the cone filter shown should flow about 50% better than the flat panel, and also last longer because of it's obviously larger pleat surface area exposure to oncoming air.

If you use the cone filter, you will want the "dirty" side to be the exterior.

P.S. I plan on trying to mount a permanent (cleanable) electrostatic filter in my air conditioning system instead of a standard paper filter.

It should flow better than the flat panel and be reusable. They are cut-to-fit and can be found at just about any home store like Home Depot. For instance, check out webproducts dot com.

[ January 29, 2004, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
thanks for the tips guys. i have been playing with my retro fit into my pannel air box and it is do-able.

i converted my stock system to a cold air intake system by plugging the air hoses inside the engine and then drilling out a hole in the bottom resignator with a custom sheild to block water.

we dont get floods here so its ok.

but i got the cold air, now i want a little more flow for air....i bored out the lines a little more so that a little more air flows though it...it actually feels like there is a little more kick

just one of the things i like to mess with haha
 
be cautous when modifying the resonator chamber and its location on the intake tract. on some cars, this chamber is dyno proven to add power. the miata for example, loses 5 ftlb's of torque when you remove this chamber or modify it so that it is not a chamber anymore.
i would imagine honda to be similar in effect.
 
it puts into account flow. lets say u have a long tube you will get higher in the low to higher rpms cause the velocity increases as its comming in, but if u have a short intake, i have power only in the higher rpms cause of less velocity and thus only having higher power in the upper range.
---
this is from twan....
culmination origionally posted this a while back and i saved it on my computer.

i think this is the url for it http://www.superhonda.com/forum/sho...hort+ram+vs+CAI


tuan's post
The premise of a CAI is that colder air is denser than warmer air. If you paid some attention in chemistry class you would remember that the concentration of a gas varies with temp. PV = nRT...the universal gas law.

When I mean denser, I mean that the colder air holds more oxygen molecules for a given volume. More oxygen is what supports combustion and makes power.

The general rule is for every 11 degrees F colder the air intake temperature , you gain 1% in terms of power.

What people don't realize is that the length and diameter of an intake also play a huge role on top of the temp of the air. Longer intake tubes produce more power in the lower rpms. Short ones produce a powerband that is located in the upper rpms more than the lower. Bigger diameters move the powerband to a higher rom location.

As you increase diameter, the speed of the air flow slows down but you get more air in. This is why it takes more rpms to build up enough flow speed and the reason the powerband is shifted higher with bigger diameters.
Decrease diameter and the speed of the air flow increases but the amount of air going in is less. You get a lower rpm powerband location sinc ethe speed is achieved at an earlier rom compared to the larger diameter tube.


As you increase the length of the intake tube, like on a CAI, the speed of the air flow increases: lower rpm powerband location . Shorted the length and the speed slows down and you shif the powerband up higher to a higher rpm.

So the air temp drawn in, length, diameter of the intake tube all play a role in how much power you gain and where along the rpm range.

CAI are longer. And if you compare them to a short ram with the same diameter, they make more power only in the low-mid rpms. You can prevent a short ram from sucking in warmer air in the engine bay by placing a box around the filter and place an opening inthe box that is located below or you can make a heat shield and block the heat from the engine.


We haven't even gotten into discussing velocity stacks (venturi effect), air horns, and different filters K&N, foam, metal mesh, paper)....maybe another time.

Wider slows speed: Wider has more gains at high rpms
diameter or width determines the amount of air that gets to the combustion chamber...

the wider you go, the more air you get in BUT also....the wider you go, the slower the speed of the flow....

so you have to tease out 2 ideas:

- flow quantity (amount of air gulped in)

versus

- flow velocity (how fast the air travels as it is geing gulped in)


Getting more air in makes more power. More air (flow quantity) is good BUT where is that gain going to be located along the rpm band? To answer that, we look at both length and width...this is where air speed (flow velocity) comes in: How does length and width (diameter) of the intake tube affect air speed and the location of gains on the rpm range?

Well,


Length affects only speed not the amount of air that goes in:

the longer the you go, the faster the speed.

If you build up speed faster, then the power will come on earlier along the rpm powerband. You get more low rpm power.

If the air is travelling slower, the build up of power takes longer and so the power gain happens at a later or higher rpm.

Short rams that are wide (both of these slow air speed down) have their gains in power at a higher rpm powerband.


Long CAI's tend to make more power at the lower rpms (if the width is identical to the short ram intake).


You can play around with combining different lengths and widths (diameters) to get the location of where you want your gains to be along the rpm range.

We haven't talked about long tubes with tapered widths with the biggest width being at the filter opening and the smallest width at the TB....

Tapered designs increase air speed much faster than tubes with the same width all the way thru from the filter to the TB.

So the Iceman CAI which is tapered will have a faster air speed than a constant width tube like an AEM CAI.

AEM CAI (blue) vs Short Ram with the SAME DIAMETER (red) on the same engine combination (only difference is the due to the intake):


As you can plainly see, the only place where the CAI is "superior" is at the 4000-5500 rpm range (known as the AEM hump) when you compare these on a single stage IM and using the same TB size. This is all due to the extra length on the CAI which gives superior low to mid rpm flow speeds yielding more low end power.

Notice that the short ram does quite well in comparison at the upper rpms, thank you very much AS LONG AS YOU CHOOSE THE PROPER DIAMETER. Val's Civic HX has a B20 in this test and he now runs high 12's all motor with a VTEC head, BF Goodrich drag radials , and weighing in at 2400 lb...

The cold denser air story does not translate into big gains on the dyno....I guess if you blew a fan down by the opening of the CAI to simulate what would happen if the car was moving you may see a difference but in terms of et, there appears to be no big gains there either. The dyno test using a fan has not been done. What speed would you set the fan to anyway?

The other thing you learn is that this gain at 4000-5000 rpm from the CAI is what you "feel" on the butt dyno but in terms of going fast, the gain needs to be higher at the upper rpms. So here, the AEM engineers were smart in placing the gain where you would "feel" it the most but in reality does not translate into a true performance gain on the track.....
 
its alot to think about but really it does have a point.

i myself will only put the cone inside my intake system and leave the stock piping there. this way it will draw in cold air (i drilled a hole in my resignator) and still will be the same as stock+cold air...


cryptokid : i do know what u mean though, some cars gain and loose power...i just want more air flow for my cold air stock intake system
 
most hondas feature resonance chambers in the intake track which add power. well, most modern ones anyways. i have no idea what year youre car is, but if you see big box looking things on the intake which seem to have no parts, chances are its a resonance chamber(s).

if you decide to go with a cold air intake, take note that most hondas already feature this, stock from the factory. there is exceptions of course, my sisters 98 with a d16y7 has no cai. my moms 98 crv with the b20 has one stock.

both of these vehicles feature multipule resonance chambers, and adding a aftermarket cai will decrease power, because i have not yet seen an aftermarket cai which includes provisions for the resonance chambers. any minute gains in air flow or velocity would be offset by the jack of chambers.

if you can sucessfully build a aftermarket cai and use the stock resonance chambers, you could probably gain, maybe i dont know 5hp or so. it wont be enough to feel, and it really would not be worth the time and effort and money honestly on a stock engine. even if you had upgraded cams, a header, a headerback, and a bbtb, you still would not see much gains by a cai.

put it this way, anything you do to youre car that is cheap, easy or both, does not provide much gains. i have a fairly limited knowledge of honda tuning and modifications i played around a little with my sisters car. my expretese is mainly the mazda bp5 and bp-ze engine family's.
i can tell you that if honda is anything like mazda, they make their intake systems so efficent that 9 times out of 10 you lose power when putting an aftermerket intake on. it is very hard to design an intake system that is better than factory. the dynamics involved with caculating tube length versus width, ambient tempature, inner tube surface, and afm/maf all have to be taken into account.

i can tell you another thing, most of the time it isnt even the intake which is the limiting factor, its the afm or maf if youre car has one. (my sisters civic has a map).

an engine has to be built as a combo of parts to create power. if you change one thing you must change them all. there is no one size fits all upgrades. ifyou change your intake cam, you need to change the intake manifold. if you change compression, you need to change cams. if you buy a exhaust cam, you need to get a header to work with it. everything is sort of inter-related, and it just doesnt really work to do one thing without doing the rest.

i have yet to see a aftermarket intake provide more than 5whp on a mazda bp or honda i4, unless its a special application like increased displacment or some other engine changing modification. the intake tract really doesnt provide much power gains. the intake manifold on the other hand, thats another story. but they all are another story.

by the way, you wont "feel" any gains from an intake change. what you will notice is the increased sound, which has that ever so popular way of making the engine seem like it has more power.
 
I'm curious to see how the resonance chamber increases power. From what I knew it was only there to quiet the intake.

A common mod on fox-body Mustangs is to remove the resonator at the beginning of the intake, good for about 7-10hp.
 
i think it quiets the intake as well. but the longer piping air flow results in more velocity instead of short intakes that is slower velocity..

at least thats what i think.
 
i am not exactly SURE how a resonance chamber works, but i have a theory.

as an intake valve closes, air is still rushing twards the valve, so that when it finally closes there is a build up of pressure against the closed intake valve. this pressure reflects back down the intake manifold sort of like a wave in a bathtub. when this pressure wave hits the resonance chamber it boundes back again, tward the intake valve. now when the resonance chamber is positioned in the right length of "time" on the intake manifold, you can achieve a nice high pressure wave which can hit a different intake valve right as it is open. to adjust when the wave hits, the resonance chamber must be positioned in the right length of time on the intake manifold. this time will change depending on what rpm you are at, so you cannot put che chamber at any set distance. so a resonance chamber would work very similar to that of a tuned exhaust pipe on a 2 cycle engine so to speak.
if the mustang resonance chamber causes the engine to lose power, it is probably not a tuned design like that of a honda or mazda and is probably just there for noise reasons. i have no expierence with mustangs though, so i cant really comment on that.

and remember, this is just my theory, which may be incorrect.
 
The resonator does nothing but change the sound (in the case of your Z, it softens the noise). I've run my Z with either cones of K&N, and the stock box with either paper or K&N panel filter. In other words, the filter on the z31, especially an n/a, is not the bottle neck of the system. It will make little to no difference.

If you want to buy the FIPK that I took off my Z to go back to stock class e-mail me.

[email protected]
 
Going back to the original question, the stock filter may already flow more air than your engine needs in its current configuration. For example, the air fliter in my Audi is so big, the same filter is used in a BMW that makes lot more power. There are other more serious restriction than the air filter in the intake: ribbed tubing, MAF housing, plenum/silencer/resonance chamber (whatever you choose to call it), and the throttle body itself. The filter is not where I'd begin modifying the intake system.
wink.gif
 
cryptokid, not all CAI are as poorly designed as you said. The fake "CAI" that you can get for most Honda and the like are longer, probably more restrictive and take in more hot air than cold. That said, depending on your car, you can design a CAI yourself that is short, large, high filter area, and cold air.

-T
 
Also, moribundman good point. The stock air filter for my 3.8 is smaller than the one for the honda shown above. There may be little or no gain in this application unless there are other modification done.

-T
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top