PP 5W20 in Ram Hemi.

[SubieRubyRoo]

Improperly selected cam core materials... SADI cores are not intended for the spring pressures and beating that the MDS can deliver. I'm willing to bet that the 6.4s and all of the SRT offerings use billet cam cores like they should have, and that's the MAIN reason why you don't see those failures on those engines.

I think burla's fix, while it may have some positive results, is putting the cart before the horse. I'm no lubrication engineer but the higher viscosity likely provides more of an impact cushioning effect than the hot 20 weights, along with keeping the oil out of the "increased wear zone" as was discussed in some of the other oil threads. When you get an extremely thin film of oil, and then beat the snot out of it, the temperature will rise quickly. Then, the 20 weight oils lose their "normal" lubricating properties as the localized oil temps skyrocket; you start to ride hardened lifter roller directly on much softer, austempered ductile iron cam lobes, and well, even those who failed chemistry and metallurgy classes can come to the same conclusions that the engines do.

You wipe a cam lobe and spread chunks of ductile iron through the pan and then wipe out lifters too.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by burla
Many examples of people running 5w20 and going 300k miles, many examples of guys running 5w20 and needing a 9 grand cam'lifter swap. It's a thing, at ram forum we have done some testing of lubrication to deal with it, and on ram forumz with the z, they have done a lot of work on registering the issues. The latest spec dropped in 2010 as in gf-5, and guess what the gf-6 spec is taking forever, what are the discussing at the high lubrication court in the land? Cam/lifter wear, amoung other things of course di runs the show, but they are discussing cam/lifters, why? because there is a problem is why. run 5w20 I could care less, but if you own a hemi do some research other then listen to random posters, of which I would be included in that group. Better to look at facts then listen to anyone.



You have not listed a single fact. For 13 years Chrysler has recommended 5W20 grade with the same additve levels. This was before GF-5. You still have not posted facts to support your last posts in another thread. The fact is the 5.7 has continued to be a very good and reliable engine in mutiple platforms and fails and a compairable rate as it's contemporaries at less than 1%. But were are your alternative facts?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by burla
I'm not making any statements to the cause, could be anything including low viscosity oil as in their eco diesel and bearing damage. The fix for that, go to 40 weight oi per FCAl. Anything someone does is their lubrication strategy based on their research. I'm just putting out an argument to consider what is going on and consider the viscosity. I'm certainly not saying that 30 weight oil would have changed anything, just that it is certainly "possible" it could have. I bet every guy that had a lifter/cam fail out of warranty wished he woulda considered. Nothing else to add, good day.


I'm just trying to offer other reasons. With the Eco Diesel something was missed and the 40wt was the bandaid which further proves that they would have done the same thing with the 5.7's if the oil was the cause. Easy to spec a 30wt and move forward but they haven't so I can only suggest that it's most likely a design / part problem that is limited to a certain number of affected units.

Otherwise we would see > with similar issues related to 20wt's as well.


With the Eco Diesel it was primarily the lugging that was the issue. The spec Euro 5w-30 had an HTHS of >=3.5cP, so it wasn't "thin". For 2016 the engines got re-spec'd to a heavier 5w-40 and the PCM was reprogrammed to prevent lugging. This rendered the issue "solved" apparently.

Regarding the lifter failures, the SRT's, with the same lifters and MDS systems aren't having the issue, but they call for 0w-40. It's possible that lighter valve springs and skating are a contributing factor, but I don't know the spring pressure differences between the two engines off-hand.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Improperly selected cam core materials... SADI cores are not intended for the spring pressures and beating that the MDS can deliver. I'm willing to bet that the 6.4s and all of the SRT offerings use billet cam cores like they should have, and that's the MAIN reason why you don't see those failures on those engines.

I think burla's fix, while it may have some positive results, is putting the cart before the horse. I'm no lubrication engineer but the higher viscosity likely provides more of an impact cushioning effect than the hot 20 weights, along with keeping the oil out of the "increased wear zone" as was discussed in some of the other oil threads. When you get an extremely thin film of oil, and then beat the snot out of it, the temperature will rise quickly. Then, the 20 weight oils lose their "normal" lubricating properties as the localized oil temps skyrocket; you start to ride hardened lifter roller directly on much softer, austempered ductile iron cam lobes, and well, even those who failed chemistry and metallurgy classes can come to the same conclusions that the engines do.

You wipe a cam lobe and spread chunks of ductile iron through the pan and then wipe out lifters too.


IIRC, the SRT cores are SADI too. I'd rather a billet core too, FWIW.

 

[burla]

If the OP wants, they are easy finds in those other forums, as they are sticky's. They are sticky's because every member in those forums are aware of what is going on as seemingly every single week another members cam lobs miss the lifters in cylinder 5. Who knows what it is causing the issue, again I make no claim to know that, just that it is happening. Now, what can someone do in that situation? Put a great cam/lifters in, do nothing, or research oil and make a change. The last thing is no big deal, no big fat drama, no reason to get in someone's kitchen and yammer. It is as simple as going to the store, and buying a hearty oil, or not whatever. Oh yeah, you can also manually shut of mds system, use tow haul 24/7, or downshift to 5 gear in 6 speed or 7th in the 8 speed, or tune it out. Again, mds shuts off cylinders and sends more gas to the cylinders in use, I wouldn't know how that would save gas, and in fact doesn't in real life.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by burla
wouldn't know how that would save gas, and in fact doesn't in real life.


It does, in my Jeep, I've tested it, it works. Good Lord, if the technology didn't work, why in the h-e-double hockey sticks would Chrysler go to all the bother of implementing it?

 

[burla]

Cafe standards is why, we have done multiple tests guys actual save mileage buy turning mds in the city.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by burla
Cafe standards is why, we have done multiple tests guys actual save mileage buy turning mds in the city.


And on the highway, where it is primarily designed to make a difference? In town i scoot around enough that it doesn't kick on. For CAFE, it actually has to make a difference to be worthwhile, that should be somewhat obvious.

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted by burla
If the OP wants, they are easy finds in those other forums, as they are sticky's. They are sticky's because every member in those forums are aware of what is going on as seemingly every single week another members cam lobs miss the lifters in cylinder 5. Who knows what it is causing the issue, again I make no claim to know that, just that it is happening. Now, what can someone do in that situation? Put a great cam/lifters in, do nothing, or research oil and make a change. The last thing is no big deal, no big fat drama, no reason to get in someone's kitchen and yammer. It is as simple as going to the store, and buying a hearty oil, or not whatever. Oh yeah, you can also manually shut of mds system, use tow haul 24/7, or downshift to 5 gear in 6 speed or 7th in the 8 speed, or tune it out. Again, mds shuts off cylinders and sends more gas to the cylinders in use, I wouldn't know how that would save gas, and in fact doesn't in real life.

My neighbor fell victim to the dreaded "cylinder #5 missfire" in his Hemi. Truck was just outside of warranty and the repair (cam/lifters) was $5000.

https://www.ramforumz.com/showthread.php?t=188978

 

[burla]

Yeah dealership pricing is all over the map, he was one of the lucky ones. We've seen a couple in the 4500-5k range, a couple in the $7900 range, and a couple at $8800/9k range. And you likely know, sometimes they can't get the cam out of the block, in that case we saw a 12k dealership quote for a new block. It is a drag, and no way to tell for sure anything you do will matter anyhow, but many of us use heartier oils on the off chance we can avoid this.

 

[burla]

The wear numbers show that long term us of Redline in hemi's go in the right direction, I'm not posting them here but they are in the other thread on board. I'm trying to get a couple guys to post them there, one already did.

this thread- redline makes hemi tick go away at about 80% clip, and the wear numbers tumble with long term use, the stuff is hemi honey. Not making any other claims except in hemi's, that is where the work is being done over there. look at those uoa's closely.
-

 

[madeej11]

Same old same old burla. Let's see. Moly, zinc, hearty oil and Red Line. Hark, I can hear them calling for you right now at the Singer sewing machine forums.

 

[Robster]

I'm on my second run of PP 5w-20 on my hemi--no issues yet. I'm thinking about switching to Valvoline going forward, but only because SOPUS has screwed me too many times on rebates.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by madeej11
Same old same old burla. Let's see. Moly, zinc, hearty oil and Red Line. Hark, I can hear them calling for you right now at the Singer sewing machine forums.



That guy is a bot. Once you point out his fallacious posts he ignors you then keeps posting the same doubious information.

 

[CincyDavid]

My Grand Cherokee HEMI will throw a CEL if I put anything but 20 weight in it, and it gets a faint stumble at idle that disappears with 5w20 Castrol Edge in it. If it goes *kaboom* so be it, but I sincerely doubt it will. I suspect there are some differences between the Hemi engines in the trucks vs. the SUVs, but the MDS system should be at least roundly similar.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by CincyDavid
My Grand Cherokee HEMI will throw a CEL if I put anything but 20 weight in it, and it gets a faint stumble at idle that disappears with 5w20 Castrol Edge in it. If it goes *kaboom* so be it, but I sincerely doubt it will. I suspect there are some differences between the Hemi engines in the trucks vs. the SUVs, but the MDS system should be at least roundly similar.


I know that there was a TSB issued that allowed for 30wt's to be used and it involved a software update. You might check into this for your model / year.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by CincyDavid
My Grand Cherokee HEMI will throw a CEL if I put anything but 20 weight in it, and it gets a faint stumble at idle that disappears with 5w20 Castrol Edge in it. If it goes *kaboom* so be it, but I sincerely doubt it will. I suspect there are some differences between the Hemi engines in the trucks vs. the SUVs, but the MDS system should be at least roundly similar.



How does it not throw codes while operating before the oil reaches operating tempature?

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by madeej11
Same old same old burla. Let's see. Moly, zinc, hearty oil and Red Line. Hark, I can hear them calling for you right now at the Singer sewing machine forums.



That guy is a bot. Once you point out his fallacious posts he ignors you then keeps posting the same doubious information.


Interesting.

burla
FEMININE NOUN
1. (banter)
a. taunt
El atleta tuvo que soportar las burlas racistas del público.The athlete had to endure the racist taunts of the crowd.
b. gibe
La nueva versión es una burla de la pelÃcula original.The remake is a gibe at the original movie.
c. jibe
Nunca harÃa burla del aspecto de alguien.I would never aim a jibe at someone's features.
2. (leg-pulling)
a. joke
Sus burlas son tan divertidas que siempre me hacen reÃr.His jokes are so funny that they always make me laugh.
3. (deceit)
a. trick
El enemigo se creyó la burla y fue arrinconado por nuestras tropas.The enemy fell for the trick and was cornered by our troops.

 

[CincyDavid]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by CincyDavid
My Grand Cherokee HEMI will throw a CEL if I put anything but 20 weight in it, and it gets a faint stumble at idle that disappears with 5w20 Castrol Edge in it. If it goes *kaboom* so be it, but I sincerely doubt it will. I suspect there are some differences between the Hemi engines in the trucks vs. the SUVs, but the MDS system should be at least roundly similar.



How does it not throw codes while operating before the oil reaches operating tempature?


Not a clue...but I had the guy at O'Reilly's plug in the OBD reader and it read something to the effect "incorrect oil, see dealer". I did an oil change and it went away. If I was the only one driving it I'd just live with the CEL being illuminated, but my wife drives it more than I do and when it came on the first time, she called to tell me "the red oil light came on" and I about lost my mind. I ran right over to her office expecting to find a fried engine but it was just the CEL. I did have a talk with her to the effect that if the "red oil light" ever does come on, shut it down ASAP and don't just keep driving it.

 

[wemay]

I've seen multiple sample UOA where the owner's been using either, 20, 30 and even 40 for the life of the vehicle. Zero issues with any of grades.