2018 Dodge 3.6L calls for 5W20, while same Chrysler engine calls for 0W20

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted by KrisZ
So your deduction is that a 5w20 dexos oil will cause damage?
Not me, GM. I didn't write the manual. The subject is what the owners manual says, and that matters to the GM Warranty Dept. I myself think that a 5w20 could possibly cause engine damage on a very cold day, given the tight clearances in GM engines since 2012. Also the associated problems with bypass events washing junk into the bearings during cold starts with 5w20 oil. Less likely with 0w20 oil. I see what GM engineers are doing, they protect cold starts.
Read the part about tighter clearances, and the associated pressure spike:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forum...f48e-oil-filter-instead-of-pf64-pf48.pdf
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
I see what GM engineers are doing, they protect cold starts.


Now if only they would protect timing chains and fix their fuel dilution issues without having to invent new oil specifications to fix their mistakes...
grin2.gif
 
0 grade will flow better in cold compared to 5 grade. 20 grade or any other grade will thicken as it heats not thin out as a multigrade is 0 grade cold 20 grade when up to normal operations. Reason for higher grades with hard running it has to do with additive package. Go to any oil sheet and compare 20 grade to 30 grade and you see minut differences. If you run UOA and see oil thinned out then you have contamination but most show same grade you put in. Any failures that happen in automotive come from to long between oil change, design problems or abuse.
 
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
bubbatime, you must mean Dodge Caravan, since the Chrysler Town & Country minivan hasn't been made since the Pacifica replaced it a couple of years ago.
tiger862, the oil filter is the same (XG11665 or 68191349AC) between an '18 Caravan & '17 Pacifica. Are you sure about any "updates"?


IIRC that filter dates back to 2014, and is still being used on the 2018 PUG engine.

Dodge redesigned filter and oil pump around 2012 and so happens to be when they went to 5w20.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by KrisZ
So your deduction is that a 5w20 dexos oil will cause damage?
Not me, GM. I didn't write the manual. The subject is what the owners manual says, and that matters to the GM Warranty Dept. I myself think that a 5w20 could possibly cause engine damage on a very cold day, given the tight clearances in GM engines since 2012. Also the associated problems with bypass events washing junk into the bearings during cold starts with 5w20 oil. Less likely with 0w20 oil. I see what GM engineers are doing, they protect cold starts.
Read the part about tighter clearances, and the associated pressure spike:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forum...f48e-oil-filter-instead-of-pf64-pf48.pdf




Well, this document talks about tighter tolerances and how the use of an oil filter with the bypass valve setting of less than 15psi can cause debris to circulate in the engine. Nowhere does it mentions to use 0wXX oil as a fix. Where are you getting that a 5w20 will damage the engine from?

Oil.jpg
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by tiger862
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
bubbatime, you must mean Dodge Caravan, since the Chrysler Town & Country minivan hasn't been made since the Pacifica replaced it a couple of years ago.
tiger862, the oil filter is the same (XG11665 or 68191349AC) between an '18 Caravan & '17 Pacifica. Are you sure about any "updates"?


IIRC that filter dates back to 2014, and is still being used on the 2018 PUG engine.

Dodge redesigned filter and oil pump around 2012 and so happens to be when they went to 5w20.


That's interesting. I'm more familiar with Jeep Wranglers. In the Wrangler that XG11665 dates back to 2014. In 2012 the Pentastar engine, at least in Jeep Wranglers was calling for 5W30, and used a different filter. Then they went with one size fits all 5W20 in 2013 with no other choices with the older design filter. My 2016 Rubicon allows me to use 5W20 or 5W30, with the XG11665 type filter. I run 5W30 in mine.
 
...and the 3.6 originally was spec'd for 5w30. Queue the CAFE conspiracy folks.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Well, this document talks about tighter tolerances and how the use of an oil filter with the bypass valve setting of less than 15psi can cause debris to circulate in the engine. Nowhere does it mentions to use 0wXX oil as a fix. Where are you getting that a 5w20 will damage the engine from?
Physics. Thicker oil at KV(-10), KV(-5), KV0, KV10, KV20, & note 5w20 is thicker than a 0w20 there, creates greater differential pressure across the oil filter media and also increases the amplitude of the startup pressure spike.
Fluid Mechanics 101. The thinner the oil, the fewer the bypass events at cool-cold temperatures.
https://vscht.cz/uchi/ped/hydroteplo/materialy/introduction.fluid.mech.pdf .... it is useful to know the basic principles. Kinda fun stuff too, I think.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Silver
...and the 3.6 originally was spec'd for 5w30. Queue the CAFE conspiracy folks.
smile.gif



They have made some revisions since then to the filter, cylinder heads and oil pump. That said my dad's ran the first 2/3rd's of its life on 5w20 conventional when I was driving it as a fleet vehicle and now he runs the cheapest oil he can find 5w30 conventional with a Fram basic filter cartridge and it isn't using any oil and runs great at 300K.
 
Originally Posted by tiger862
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
bubbatime, you must mean Dodge Caravan, since the Chrysler Town & Country minivan hasn't been made since the Pacifica replaced it a couple of years ago. tiger862, the oil filter is the same (XG11665 or 68191349AC) between an '18 Caravan & '17 Pacifica. Are you sure about any "updates"?
IIRC that filter dates back to 2014, and is still being used on the 2018 PUG engine.
Dodge redesigned filter and oil pump around 2012 and so happens to be when they went to 5w20.

Yet, we here are comparing a '17 Pacifica 3.6L to an '18 Caravan 3.6L, and the Pacifica specs 0w20 while the Caravan specs 5w20, nothing at all to do with what happened back in 2012.

Originally Posted by StevieC
They have made some revisions since then to the filter, cylinder heads and oil pump. That said my dad's ran the first 2/3rd's of its life on 5w20 conventional when I was driving it as a fleet vehicle and now he runs the cheapest oil he can find 5w30 conventional with a Fram basic filter cartridge and it isn't using any oil and runs great at 300K.
The only time an oil pump would be incompatible with a particular weight of oil would be on the hot, thin end, and 5w20 vs. 0w20 has the same hot viscosity here in this discussion, the oil pump is not the issue here..... ... I did hear of the Ford Ranger 4.0L V6 (around 2007) still spec'ing 5w30 while just about every other Ford engine had gone to xw20, and it was because the 4.0L's oil pump couldn't handle oil thinner than a 30 weight when hot. You can see how that is completely different about blaming the oil pump for a different 0w20 vs 5w20 rating, given they are the same viscosity hot.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Well, this document talks about tighter tolerances and how the use of an oil filter with the bypass valve setting of less than 15psi can cause debris to circulate in the engine. Nowhere does it mentions to use 0wXX oil as a fix. Where are you getting that a 5w20 will damage the engine from?
Physics. Thicker oil at KV(-10), KV(-5), KV0, KV10, KV20, & note 5w20 is thicker than a 0w20 there, creates greater differential pressure across the oil filter media and also increases the amplitude of the startup pressure spike.
Fluid Mechanics 101. The thinner the oil, the fewer the bypass events at cool-cold temperatures.
https://vscht.cz/uchi/ped/hydroteplo/materialy/introduction.fluid.mech.pdf .... it is useful to know the basic principles. Kinda fun stuff too, I think.



You don't need to quote physics. Just because a 5w oil is slightly thicker when cold, doesn't mean it's causing damage. Do you know what kind of pressure differential are we talking about between 0w and 5w? Did you consider the pump by-pass as well? And like I said earlier, that GM TSB talks about a redesigned oil filter bypass valve, not using 0w oil. Based on what did you conclude that a 0w oil would not cause the oil filter to go into the by-pass mode?
 
Originally Posted by bubbatime
I use synthetic 5W30 and will for the duration of the time I own it.

If that's the case, why ask the question? Just askin.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by tiger862
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
bubbatime, you must mean Dodge Caravan, since the Chrysler Town & Country minivan hasn't been made since the Pacifica replaced it a couple of years ago. tiger862, the oil filter is the same (XG11665 or 68191349AC) between an '18 Caravan & '17 Pacifica. Are you sure about any "updates"?
IIRC that filter dates back to 2014, and is still being used on the 2018 PUG engine.
Dodge redesigned filter and oil pump around 2012 and so happens to be when they went to 5w20.

Yet, we here are comparing a '17 Pacifica 3.6L to an '18 Caravan 3.6L, and the Pacifica specs 0w20 while the Caravan specs 5w20, nothing at all to do with what happened back in 2012.

Originally Posted by StevieC
They have made some revisions since then to the filter, cylinder heads and oil pump. That said my dad's ran the first 2/3rd's of its life on 5w20 conventional when I was driving it as a fleet vehicle and now he runs the cheapest oil he can find 5w30 conventional with a Fram basic filter cartridge and it isn't using any oil and runs great at 300K.
The only time an oil pump would be incompatible with a particular weight of oil would be on the hot, thin end, and 5w20 vs. 0w20 has the same hot viscosity here in this discussion, the oil pump is not the issue here..... ... I did hear of the Ford Ranger 4.0L V6 (around 2007) still spec'ing 5w30 while just about every other Ford engine had gone to xw20, and it was because the 4.0L's oil pump couldn't handle oil thinner than a 30 weight when hot. You can see how that is completely different about blaming the oil pump for a different 0w20 vs 5w20 rating, given they are the same viscosity hot.


I wasn't blaming the oil pump, just listing the revisions since them spec'ing a 20wt.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Based on what did you conclude that a 0w oil would not cause the oil filter to go into the by-pass mode?
Like I said many times above, its relative. Fewer bypass events with 0w20 vs. 5w20 over a winter season. Said another way, a 0w20 will bypass at a lower temperature than a 5w20. I think most people reading this don't put all this in terms of absolutes, as viscosity is the central player.
Still don't get it? OK, one more time: At an example 20F, the 5w20 will be thicker than a 0w20, and therefore, the 5w20 will produce more differential pressure across the filter media, which might be enough to wash debris across the filter. The 0w20 won't bypass until lower temperatures than the 5w20.
I'm out. I don't know how many more ways to explain basic physics to KrisZ.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
... therefore, the 5w20 will produce more differential pressure across the filter media, which might be enough to wash debris across the filter. ...
Emphasis on MIGHT. How likely is that realistically, at such a moderate temperature?
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
I wasn't blaming the oil pump, just listing the revisions since them spec'ing a 20wt.
None of those revisions seem to matter here.
The differences between a 5w20 and a 0w20:

1. 5w20 can be had for cheaper since its available in GroupII.--- favors fleet maintenance costs; consumers don't know or care.

2. 5w20 gets progressively thicker as temperature drops below about 40C, compared to a 0w20. --- When the warranty dept. is concerned about winter startups.

3. 5w20 is more shear stable in most cases, yes, even when a 0w20 is a syn blend or all-GroupIII and the 5w20 is a GroupII. --- Some engines are shear monsters & shred VII.

4. 5w20 may have less timing chain wear as some studies suggest, since its base oil is thicker. Upper cylinder wear studies have shown that too.

Other than the above, there is no difference between 0w20 & 5w20. Engineers, marketing (fleet sales people), & the warranty dept. all factor in.
 
I'm not following you. I wasn't connecting any of these changes to them calling for a 20wt over the 30wt of the past. Just that all the revisions happened at the same time but not related to each other.
 
Originally Posted by bubbatime
I use synthetic 5W30 and will for the duration of the time I own it.



Agree with this plan. The Pentastar was originally specified 5w-30. If it's only a grocery getter around town, then a 20 grade oil will be fine. 5w- or 0w-, either one.
 
Maybe the corporation sees the Chrysler buyer as someone who bought a more up level product with less resistance to higher priced oil changes at the dealer for the 0W20 synthetic.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Based on what did you conclude that a 0w oil would not cause the oil filter to go into the by-pass mode?
Like I said many times above, its relative. Fewer bypass events with 0w20 vs. 5w20 over a winter season. Said another way, a 0w20 will bypass at a lower temperature than a 5w20. I think most people reading this don't put all this in terms of absolutes, as viscosity is the central player.
Still don't get it? OK, one more time: At an example 20F, the 5w20 will be thicker than a 0w20, and therefore, the 5w20 will produce more differential pressure across the filter media, which might be enough to wash debris across the filter. The 0w20 won't bypass until lower temperatures than the 5w20.
I'm out. I don't know how many more ways to explain basic physics to KrisZ.




I'm pretty sure you're the one that doesn't get it. I understand the physics just fine and how viscosity changes with temperature. But you simply take these facts and say that bad and things will happen because a 5w20 is thicker than 0w20. That's like saying the opposite for the hot viscosity, we all know that thicker oils provide better and stronger protective film, it's a known fact, therefore thin oil must damage engines.

Edit:
Also, to add to the oil filter by-pass pressure, per the linked GM TSB, which stated 15psi as the by-pass setting. I hope you realize that it's not the same pressure as the whole system sees, which is shown on the oil pressure gauge. Because if it were, most cars are capable of producing 15psi at hot idle. That would mean the oil would be by-passing 100% of the time.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top