Shops not willing to do hard work?

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by Audios
One mistake could cost the shop thousands, especially on an engine like that, and dont see the return over the risk. Dont mean to ramble, but just a view from the other side of the counter.
Cars can be much more complicated now. A rear main seal that used to be 3-4 hours on a RWD V8 can be 10-12 hours on all wheel drive or transverse motor compact SUV.


This is key. Especially on something older like that, the techs have likely never seen it, and don't see a good risk vs. reward trying to figure it out.

 

[DoubleWasp]

I only brought it up because the issues of the bigger bore and more prone gasket sealing reminded me exactly of the ISB 5.9/6.7 situation. Beneficial? Necessary? Who knows. Really more of a spitball than a recommendation. I can tell you that studding an engine's cylinder heads is a really old and common practice for universally ensuring maximum survival of the head gasket of pretty much any engine ever made. Stress cracking from having maximum clamp has never been an issue that I've heard of in their use. I'm talking everything from motorcycles, to foreign 4-cylinders, to American V8's, to exotic V10's and V12's. This is a ridiculously common practice for high powered diesels, because boost pressures can be in the 50-80 psi range, with the resulting enormous cylinder pressures. Tuned Powerstroke 6.0's are pretty much time bombs with a short clock without head studs, regardless of build or use.

I've never heard from anyone that any amount of flex from the cylinder head mounting fasteners is in any way beneficial. ARP has always been willing to spec out fasteners for any custom application. Getting a set spec'd is usually as easy as calling in factory bolt specs, or just mailing in a full fastener set to be spec'd in the weird cases. ARP is no stranger to doing this for all sorts of custom, race, and exotic builds.

Of course, before doing any such thing, I would talk to somebody who really knows these engines. The kind of person who can drain a whole pot of coffee just going on and on about it and has gotten their fingers into everything involved in them over the years.

 

[Trav]

I guess I didn't ask the right question. What are the benefits of a very hard head stud vs a TTY head bolt and why would it be preferable other than the obvious lowered stress on the block threads?

 

[DoubleWasp]

In a nutshell, preventing unwanted movement of the cylinder head and gasket. No different from giving an extra turn on a vise handle to better hold it in place while you are smacking or cranking on it. Does the same for a head gasket. During those times when thermal differences or high cylinder pressures would cause some micro shift of the head, the studs have a lot less give to allow the head to do so, as well as being combined with the extra and more even clamping force available.

Bolts have both a vertical and a twisting load. When forces are acting against them, there are two ways that it can deflect. Studs have only a vertical load against them. Studs apply their force more evenly as well because of this.

 

[Trav]

That's pretty much the way I understood it, thanks. Where I was going with this is there are some mixed metal engines I cant find stud kits for even in the Euro performance market.
They use TTY bolts only for some reason and do not have any HG issues but it may be because they are not that common.

 

[DoubleWasp]

It's a matter of engine design and necessity. If you stud some engines, you can't get the heads off without removing the engine (V-engines usually), and engines without known sealing or cylinder pressure issues. Some engines just aren't popular enough to have a "kit" for them. Lot of factors.

There have been very few times in my life where I have used studs to mount a head. Only the most extreme examples, or where known to have direct and proven benefit.

Your application may line up to where it makes sense, or it may not.

 

[oilpsi2high]

Probably not worth the hassle to them, honestly.

Imagine this scenario: Shop replaces headgasket, car is fine for a while then starts leaking again. Customer returns and complains to high heaven, requesting new engine etc. Shop declines, customer resorts to social media and posts horrible reviews about the shop all over the internet, ruining the shop's reputation. The margin on a high-labor job like this isn't very good to begin with. So they're taking on all that risk to make maybe $ 200.

Can't say I blame them!

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
It's a matter of engine design and necessity. If you stud some engines, you can't get the heads off without removing the engine (V-engines usually), and engines without known sealing or cylinder pressure issues. Some engines just aren't popular enough to have a "kit" for them. Lot of factors.

There have been very few times in my life where I have used studs to mount a head. Only the most extreme examples, or where known to have direct and proven benefit.

Your application may line up to where it makes sense, or it may not.


I remember as a young mechanic cutting off SAAB head studs with a hacksaw blade on the Triumph (IIRC) engines, now that was a genuine PITA.

 

[grampi]

Just about every place of business is getting like this. They only want to do things that are quick and easy, fast turn-around. Keep the customers flowing in and out the door, emptying their wallets. No one wants to get their hands dirty anymore...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by oilpsi2high
Probably not worth the hassle to them, honestly.

Imagine this scenario: Shop replaces headgasket, car is fine for a while then starts leaking again. Customer returns and complains to high heaven, requesting new engine etc. Shop declines, customer resorts to social media and posts horrible reviews about the shop all over the internet, ruining the shop's reputation. The margin on a high-labor job like this isn't very good to begin with. So they're taking on all that risk to make maybe $ 200.

Can't say I blame them!



Replacing a head gasket isn't even that big or difficult of a job...

 

[Silver]

Originally Posted by PeterPolyol
Originally Posted by edwardh1
maybe get a good used Toyota.

Good idea. Mechanics in general have plenty of experience changing toyota headgaskets.

 

[SeaJay]

Originally Posted by grampi
Just about every place of business is getting like this. They only want to do things that are quick and easy, fast turn-around. Keep the customers flowing in and out the door, emptying their wallets. No one wants to get their hands dirty anymore...


Understandable that they prefer more profitable work, as that is the goal of just about all businesses.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by oilpsi2high
Probably not worth the hassle to them, honestly.

Imagine this scenario: Shop replaces headgasket, car is fine for a while then starts leaking again. Customer returns and complains to high heaven, requesting new engine etc. Shop declines, customer resorts to social media and posts horrible reviews about the shop all over the internet, ruining the shop's reputation. The margin on a high-labor job like this isn't very good to begin with. So they're taking on all that risk to make maybe $ 200.

Can't say I blame them!



Replacing a head gasket isn't even that big or difficult of a job...


On many cars that's true (there a also just as many that are a nightmare to remove/install, some even must have the engine removed) but with many engines just getting the head on and off its not the real issue.

 

[dogememe]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by oilpsi2high
Probably not worth the hassle to them, honestly.

Imagine this scenario: Shop replaces headgasket, car is fine for a while then starts leaking again. Customer returns and complains to high heaven, requesting new engine etc. Shop declines, customer resorts to social media and posts horrible reviews about the shop all over the internet, ruining the shop's reputation. The margin on a high-labor job like this isn't very good to begin with. So they're taking on all that risk to make maybe $ 200.

Can't say I blame them!



Replacing a head gasket isn't even that big or difficult of a job...


haha. Are you talking an old Chevy V8 or the Vortec 4.2 inline-6 used in Trailblazers? Because those are two VERY different jobs even though they are both Chevy trucks...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by SeaJay
Originally Posted by grampi
Just about every place of business is getting like this. They only want to do things that are quick and easy, fast turn-around. Keep the customers flowing in and out the door, emptying their wallets. No one wants to get their hands dirty anymore...


Understandable that they prefer more profitable work, as that is the goal of just about all businesses.


If they call themselves auto mechanics, they ought to be willing to do whatever the customer is willing to pay them to do, not just the easy repairs...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by dogememe
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by oilpsi2high
Probably not worth the hassle to them, honestly.

Imagine this scenario: Shop replaces headgasket, car is fine for a while then starts leaking again. Customer returns and complains to high heaven, requesting new engine etc. Shop declines, customer resorts to social media and posts horrible reviews about the shop all over the internet, ruining the shop's reputation. The margin on a high-labor job like this isn't very good to begin with. So they're taking on all that risk to make maybe $ 200.

Can't say I blame them!



Replacing a head gasket isn't even that big or difficult of a job...


haha. Are you talking an old Chevy V8 or the Vortec 4.2 inline-6 used in Trailblazers? Because those are two VERY different jobs even though they are both Chevy trucks...


What difference does it make? Point is, if you're an auto mechanic, you should be willing to do whatever is necessary. I'm an electronics technician, but I can't choose to do only the easy jobs...I have to do whatever needs to be done...

 

[KalapanaBlack]

A cost-benefit analysis isn't allowed?

 

[dogememe]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by dogememe
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by oilpsi2high
Probably not worth the hassle to them, honestly.

Imagine this scenario: Shop replaces headgasket, car is fine for a while then starts leaking again. Customer returns and complains to high heaven, requesting new engine etc. Shop declines, customer resorts to social media and posts horrible reviews about the shop all over the internet, ruining the shop's reputation. The margin on a high-labor job like this isn't very good to begin with. So they're taking on all that risk to make maybe $ 200.

Can't say I blame them!



Replacing a head gasket isn't even that big or difficult of a job...


haha. Are you talking an old Chevy V8 or the Vortec 4.2 inline-6 used in Trailblazers? Because those are two VERY different jobs even though they are both Chevy trucks...


What difference does it make? Point is, if you're an auto mechanic, you should be willing to do whatever is necessary. I'm an electronics technician, but I can't choose to do only the easy jobs...I have to do whatever needs to be done...

Really? As much as it perhaps is frustrating, it's their business. If I ever owned a car shop, I'd decline any European cars. There is a very well regarded local shop in my town that does just this - they don't touch any maintenance or repairs on any Euro car. That's their choice!

 

[KrisZ]

Oops, wrong thread lol.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by SeaJay
Originally Posted by grampi
Just about every place of business is getting like this. They only want to do things that are quick and easy, fast turn-around. Keep the customers flowing in and out the door, emptying their wallets. No one wants to get their hands dirty anymore...


Understandable that they prefer more profitable work, as that is the goal of just about all businesses.


If they call themselves auto mechanics, they ought to be willing to do whatever the customer is willing to pay them to do, not just the easy repairs...


That was true 40 years ago but not today. It has become increasingly difficult if not impossible to become familiar with all makes and models, personally I do Euro cars and avoid most Japanese and US if its anything out of the ordinary. Its not about not being able to do the job its about doing a good job in a reasonable amount of time.