I have a couple of PDF manuals for the 4L80E and 4T65E, anyone want a copy of them by email PM me.
Opinions on Alto Red Eagle Clutches/Kolene Steels
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FWIW I rebuilt my 5r110 with a full red eagle kit and it has been fine for the last 4.5 years with heaving towing. As long as your clearances set up correctly there should be no issue. The kit I used had several extra frictions and steels per clutch set. I like to set mine on the tight end of specifications and have never had an issue. I have also done several other 5r110s and 6r140s without a problem. Not sure what applications you have had issues with. My trans is behind a tuned 6.0. All others have been behind tuned diesel applications whether a 6.0 6.4 or 6.7 powerstrokes.
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Originally Posted by mattd
FWIW I rebuilt my 5r110 with a full red eagle kit and it has been fine for the last 4.5 years with heaving towing. As long as your clearances set up correctly there should be no issue. The kit I used had several extra frictions and steels per clutch set. I like to set mine on the tight end of specifications and have never had an issue. I have also done several other 5r110s and 6r140s without a problem. Not sure what applications you have had issues with. My trans is behind a tuned 6.0. All others have been behind tuned diesel applications whether a 6.0 6.4 or 6.7 powerstrokes.
The Alto Reds do not work in the 4L60E 3-4 clutch at all, They fail very quickly! The factory High-Energy Borg Warner fictions proved to work best in this particular application. I've used the Raybestos GPZ line as well with good results......They have a little more ferrous metal in them than the BW's & beats up on the steels more than I would like.
Any clutch holding power you gained was mostly a result of additional friction plates, Red Eagle friction material is obsolete & ONLY a upgrade to Cellulose based friction materials......High-Energy Carbon friction's perform better!
FWIW I rebuilt my 5r110 with a full red eagle kit and it has been fine for the last 4.5 years with heaving towing. As long as your clearances set up correctly there should be no issue. The kit I used had several extra frictions and steels per clutch set. I like to set mine on the tight end of specifications and have never had an issue. I have also done several other 5r110s and 6r140s without a problem. Not sure what applications you have had issues with. My trans is behind a tuned 6.0. All others have been behind tuned diesel applications whether a 6.0 6.4 or 6.7 powerstrokes.
The Alto Reds do not work in the 4L60E 3-4 clutch at all, They fail very quickly! The factory High-Energy Borg Warner fictions proved to work best in this particular application. I've used the Raybestos GPZ line as well with good results......They have a little more ferrous metal in them than the BW's & beats up on the steels more than I would like.
Any clutch holding power you gained was mostly a result of additional friction plates, Red Eagle friction material is obsolete & ONLY a upgrade to Cellulose based friction materials......High-Energy Carbon friction's perform better!
Red Eagles are the same as they always been. Cellulose base saturated with a hard resin then a silicate.
My theory is.....They wanted a friction that was easier on the Nitrate Treated Steel plates while having a very short lock-up time (higher coefficient of friction) This is a very delicate balancing act but Alto did a decent job considering they were developed 30+ years ago when High Energy Carbon technology was in it's infancy & was pretty well locked down by patents.
In the case of 4L60E's.....The 3-4 clutch piston is to small to effectively use the frictional properties of the Red's (Not enough clamping force), This led to a substantial INCREASE in clutch pack temperatures. Standard Cellulose (700R4) frictions lasted longer! And of coarse High Energy was a BIG leap forward.
Another interesting theory.....Red Eagle's "hold" very little ATF in the friction matrix which I'm sure is a result of the Resin Saturation process. Standard Cellulose & High Energy frictions "hold" a lot more ATF.
I soaked all 3 types in ATF & allowed them to drip-dry, Compared before(dry) & after(wet) weight readings to come to this conclusion.
*The ATF in the friction material acts as a heat-sink to the friction surface. But this creates surface tension between the friction & steel, As a result.....The friction will skid/slip across the steel 'til the the tension is broken.
**IF Clamping Force is great enough & Actuation is quick enough for the oncoming clutch......Red Eagle's are a decent material choice. The reason they are so popular in purpose built Drag Racing transmissions.
Surface Tension with High Energy Carbon friction material can be remedied by employing Surface/Face Grooving.....Giving the ATF paths of escape. This the BEST combination of holding power & longevity when it comes to Highly Stressed Dynamic clutch packs.
Do some research......You will find that Surface Grooved High Energy Carbon frictions are being utilized more & more in high performance applications!
My theory is.....They wanted a friction that was easier on the Nitrate Treated Steel plates while having a very short lock-up time (higher coefficient of friction) This is a very delicate balancing act but Alto did a decent job considering they were developed 30+ years ago when High Energy Carbon technology was in it's infancy & was pretty well locked down by patents.
In the case of 4L60E's.....The 3-4 clutch piston is to small to effectively use the frictional properties of the Red's (Not enough clamping force), This led to a substantial INCREASE in clutch pack temperatures. Standard Cellulose (700R4) frictions lasted longer! And of coarse High Energy was a BIG leap forward.
Another interesting theory.....Red Eagle's "hold" very little ATF in the friction matrix which I'm sure is a result of the Resin Saturation process. Standard Cellulose & High Energy frictions "hold" a lot more ATF.
I soaked all 3 types in ATF & allowed them to drip-dry, Compared before(dry) & after(wet) weight readings to come to this conclusion.
*The ATF in the friction material acts as a heat-sink to the friction surface. But this creates surface tension between the friction & steel, As a result.....The friction will skid/slip across the steel 'til the the tension is broken.
**IF Clamping Force is great enough & Actuation is quick enough for the oncoming clutch......Red Eagle's are a decent material choice. The reason they are so popular in purpose built Drag Racing transmissions.
Surface Tension with High Energy Carbon friction material can be remedied by employing Surface/Face Grooving.....Giving the ATF paths of escape. This the BEST combination of holding power & longevity when it comes to Highly Stressed Dynamic clutch packs.
Do some research......You will find that Surface Grooved High Energy Carbon frictions are being utilized more & more in high performance applications!
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