Thicker oil civilization is taking over

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When you look at which side is more prone to name calling, bringing "thick" and "head" into unrelated posts, I'd beg to differ...that's the side with twisted knickers.

The ones who claim charts, data, and paper are there to "scare" people...

edit...disclaimer, I'm looking at it all from a tribology/engineering bent (been one since 1990), and brining in the motives of the OEMs AS THEY EXPLAIN it themselves...have been running oils contrary to my owner's manual since 2000 (both directions 2 grades thinner, and one grade thicker)
 
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I like learning about the chemistry and engineering on this forum because it is interesting information. I just wonder if it really matters for the most part -- I have thrown away cars for many reasons but not for oil stuff. In fact I cannot recollect anyone I know even having a directly oil related problem other than just not checking or changing it for ungodly periods of time. Transmission fluid yes, but not the engine oil. That's just my anecdotal non-substantiated opinion lol.
 
Having driven my new van in both city traffic and on the highway for our road trip and knowing it has an oil to coolant heat exchanger and being able to monitor the pressure and oil temperature on the electronic driver information system I can tell you that only breifly has the oil made it to 100c and spends most of its time at around 80c.

So this 20wt would be thicker under these conditions than a 20wt warmed to the full 100c which we have the Cst value for on the PDS making the concern of MOFT a non concern in this engine setup using a 20wt over a 30wt.

"Proper Engineering"
 
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"The ones who claim charts, data, and paper are there to "scare" people..."

It is scary ... If we weren't 500 years into The Enlightenment.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Having driven my new van in both city traffic and on the highway for our road trip and knowing it has an oil to coolant heat exchanger and being able to monitor the pressure and oil temperature on the electronic driver information system I can tell you that only breifly has the oil made it to 100c and spends most of its time at around 80c.

So this 20wt would be thicker under these conditions than a 20wt warmed to the full 100c which we have the Cst value for on the PDS making the concern of MOFT a non concern in this engine setup using a 20wt over a 30wt.

"Proper Engineering"


Are you going to move to a 20 grade oil now?
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Originally Posted by Cujet
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/hyundai-and-kia-recall-1-2-million-cars-for-engine-failures

https://www.classlawgroup.com/hyundai-sonata-engine-failure/

They claim it's due to metal shavings. This has been debunked. It's due to improper lubrication and rapid wear. The solution is, unfortunately for you thin oil types, more viscosity.

Have any proof to back up that statement?


A possibility of 1.2 million cars with manufacturing metal savings left in the engine during 4 model years of production? I doubt any factory QA department is zombied out enough to let that many cars leave with messed up engines due to poor QA during manufacturing.


Still printing 5w20 on the oil cap and recommending it as primary fill in current 2.4L after 1.2 million were recalled for what some here consider an oil viscosity issue rather than the metal shavings is considerably more doubtful to me.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Having driven my new van in both city traffic and on the highway for our road trip and knowing it has an oil to coolant heat exchanger and being able to monitor the pressure and oil temperature on the electronic driver information system I can tell you that only breifly has the oil made it to 100c and spends most of its time at around 80c.

So this 20wt would be thicker under these conditions than a 20wt warmed to the full 100c which we have the Cst value for on the PDS making the concern of MOFT a non concern in this engine setup using a 20wt over a 30wt.

"Proper Engineering"


where is your oil temperature sensor located? just curious, I've never seen operating oil temperatures that low (80°C). however despite the nominal operating oil temperature, and even if you were coasting down hill at all times, a 20 grade oil is still a 20 grade oil ...

If x20 moft/cSt/hths is adequate for a given engine & load, then i can understand that. I'm not anti thin
grin2.gif
If not, you move up to x30 or x40 for higher moft, cSt, hths ...

I don't understand your logic of my "20wt would be thicker" since my engine "spends most of its time at around 80c." ... and comparing it to idk what you may really need (e.g. x30) ... what if one hot summer day your van is fully loaded with ac on & going up hill or travelling? Are you still operating at 80°C?

Again forgetting about the oil temperature, x20 is x20 (not x30 since I'm at 80C) and "proper engineering" is to design/account for worst case conditions. If you are choosing your oil based on operating at certain temperatures %80 of the time and not accounting for the other %20 then imho that would be a poor engineering!
 
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by turnbowm
Originally Posted by Cujet
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/hyundai-and-kia-recall-1-2-million-cars-for-engine-failures

https://www.classlawgroup.com/hyundai-sonata-engine-failure/

They claim it's due to metal shavings. This has been debunked. It's due to improper lubrication and rapid wear. The solution is, unfortunately for you thin oil types, more viscosity.

Have any proof to back up that statement?


A possibility of 1.2 million cars with manufacturing metal savings left in the engine during 4 model years of production? I doubt any factory QA department is zombied out enough to let that many cars leave with messed up engines due to poor QA during manufacturing.


Still printing 5w20 on the oil cap and recommending it as primary fill in current 2.4L after 1.2 million were recalled for what some here consider an oil viscosity issue rather than the metal shavings is considerably more doubtful to me.


There was a member here who used to work for Hyundai and said in some other threads that for the recalled engines they were told to use 5Wx30 and dealers were also asked to use 5Wx30 ... I will add the link if I find it.
 
I posted that link too. But whether or not that's what they used after inspection or rebuild, the 5w20 recommendation remained the same for the 2.4L owner for future oil changes. As an aside, that document also required that either, the vehicles that passed or the rebuilt ones ( don't recall which) be filled with 5w30 QS Conventional oil - be it the 2.4L or the Turbo 2.0. The 2.0T which currently i might add, now " requires" ACEA A5.

An oil cap and owners manual supplement would have been as easy to change as was the new dip stick.
 
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Keep in mind the "thick" label the thin oil advocates use is totally wrong.

5w-30 and 10w-30 are middle or average viscosity oils. Definitely not "thick".
 
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by StevieC
Having driven my new van in both city traffic and on the highway for our road trip and knowing it has an oil to coolant heat exchanger and being able to monitor the pressure and oil temperature on the electronic driver information system I can tell you that only breifly has the oil made it to 100c and spends most of its time at around 80c.

So this 20wt would be thicker under these conditions than a 20wt warmed to the full 100c which we have the Cst value for on the PDS making the concern of MOFT a non concern in this engine setup using a 20wt over a 30wt.

"Proper Engineering"


Are you going to move to a 20 grade oil now?


I'm still going to try both but considering that the 20wt spends most of its time below 100c it's not quite thinning out to a typical 20wt in an engine that normally gets to 100c so the Cst value in the PDS is actually a larger value in my case if oil temperatures remain below the 100c

Now this may change when summer temperatures return and then in fact it would be a true 20wt at 100c as per the PDS.

We will see in the meantime I'm going to try both because of what I mentioned earlier about this engine design remaining virtually unchanged from when it was spec'ed with a 30wt and that it might prefer that.

I'm not opposed to running a 20wt at 100c though. I think it's more than fine. It's about what the engine is actually doing in terms of temperature and the need for the preferred 30wt if oil temperatures remain below 100c in this one case because the 20wt is a tad thicker not being at as high of a temperwture. Somewhere close to a 30 or just over a 20.
 
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"I'm still going to try both but considering that the 20wt spends most of its time below 100c it's not quite thinning out to a typical 20wt in an engine that normally gets to 100c so the Cst value in the PDS is actually a larger value in my case if oil temperatures remain below the 100c"

100c in the sump. Are you considering the critical areas of the engine where the oil temp is well above 100c? Main/rod bearings and mid-stroke liner walls?
 
Originally Posted by gfh77665
5w-30 and 10w-30 are middle or average viscosity oils. Definitely not "thick".


Totally not "thick". As far as I'm concerned, Xw30 oils belong on the thin side of the "thick vs thin" discusions.
 
Originally Posted by chainblu
Originally Posted by gfh77665
5w-30 and 10w-30 are middle or average viscosity oils. Definitely not "thick".

Totally not "thick". As far as I'm concerned, Xw30 oils belong on the thin side of the "thick vs thin" discusions.

I personally feel that most modern 0/5/10W-40s are on the thin side.
 
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
"I'm still going to try both but considering that the 20wt spends most of its time below 100c it's not quite thinning out to a typical 20wt in an engine that normally gets to 100c so the Cst value in the PDS is actually a larger value in my case if oil temperatures remain below the 100c"

100c in the sump. Are you considering the critical areas of the engine where the oil temp is well above 100c? Main/rod bearings and mid-stroke liner walls?


It reads the oil temperature at the top of the engine not at the sump.
 
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It's measured at the coolant to engine oil heat exchanger / filter assembly on top of the engine. The engine oil is fed into this from the galleries.
 
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
The oil temp in the bearings and rings will be higher than what's flung on the oil sensor in the valve cover or head.


A lot higher.
 
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