VW502 vs VW504

[NuttCase]

I just changed the oil in my Audi (UOA posted here) which got me looking into the VW502.00 and VW504.00 approved oils; both are suitable for my car but the 502 is not approved for "variable service" i.e. if you want to run the car beyond a year. I intend to change at least once per year so I changed out the factory fill to Fuchs 5W30 with VW502.00 approval.

Below is a table of some of the approved oils with their respective approvals and the TBN specified in their data sheets. As you can see all of the VW504 approved oils meet the ACEA C3 specification and the large majority of the VW502 oils meet A3/B4 specification. However, there are a few VW502 oils that meet the C3 spec e.g. Total Quartz Ineo MC3 and Valvoline SynPower MST C3.

The VW504 oils have TBNs typically in the mid 6s while the VW502 oils are all above 7 and many over 10 as required by A3/B4 spec (although I highlighted a few exceptions in red)

My question for the forum is why would the VW504 oils with notably lower TBNs be considered "longer life" (i.e. variable service) than the VW502 oils with higher base numbers? PS I'm new here.

 

[JAG]

I think it is because they think with the sulfur concentration in the gasoline as low as it is in some countries, that the low TBN VW 504 oils can last longer due to more advanced additives and base oils. That is, I think that they think that TBN is not the most limiting factor is oil life with such gasoline.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Most synthetic 502 oils come with other approvals like A40, 229.5, and LL-01, and they will outlast any 504/507 oil. As sulfur in gasoline becomes lower (in the U.S.), the 504/507 oils will be able to last as long as they do in the EU.

 

[zeng]

My observation of C3 oil life use in conjunction with Euro II 500 ppm gasoline is not inferior or shorter than that of a A3B4, hence I beg to differ with Bitog regular recommendation for a shorter OCI in a C3 application in NA (so called higher sulphur) gasoline , than that of a non-A3B4 SN/SM GF5/4 oils.

 

[supercity]

VW 502 has been revised and now can't be low or mid saps. You'll find VW502 will slowly be dropped from low and mid saps oils. Most licences will expire by the end of this year. I'm surprised that 504/507 seems to be one of the lower TBN C3 formulations, usually in the 7s. There are many C3s out there with TBN in the mid 8's. That's enough for A3/B3

 

[JFAllen]

I thought There was a revision in A3/B4 that TBN had to be in excess of 10. Previously there were oils claiming to meet both C3 and A3/B4. I believe they are now mutually exclusive.

Regards
Jordan

 

[Garak]

Sulphated ash also won't work for C3 and A3/B4 together.

 

[NuttCase]

JFAllen & Garak,

yes the 2016 ACEA Oil Sequence specs w.r.t TBN and SA are :

A3 / B4 TBN >= 10, sulfonated ash between 1 and 1.6

C3 TBN >=6, sulfonated ash

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by NuttCase
My question for the forum is why would the VW504 oils with notably lower TBNs be considered "longer life" (i.e. variable service) than the VW502 oils with higher base numbers? PS I'm new here.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...mber/780/filename/VW502%20vs%20VW504.png
Interesting observation that a VW 50400 Long Life oil (of up to 20,000 miles or 2 years) is a C3 with a low 6ish TBN, far outstripping the performance of a fixed (short) termed life VW 50200 , whether in a C3 with higher 7ish TBN or an A3B4 with even higher 10ish TBN.
Type and quality of additive package in detergents/dispersants differentiates oil life ?
Inputs from gurus would be required ...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Western Europe transitioned to ULSG (10 ppm) sometime around the mid-2000's. The ACEA C3 spec was born along with the OE certs based off it (VW 504/507, LL04, 229.51, etc).

Perhaps the OEM just want to encourage drives to use the more emissions friendly C3 oils or of course there's the add pack. It has been said before the starting TBN isn't everything. Some oils have a faster drop in TBN and other have additives which aren't reflected in TBN but perform just the same or better.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by zeng
Originally Posted by NuttCase
My question for the forum is why would the VW504 oils with notably lower TBNs be considered "longer life" (i.e. variable service) than the VW502 oils with higher base numbers? PS I'm new here.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...mber/780/filename/VW502%20vs%20VW504.png
Interesting observation that a VW 50400 Long Life oil (of up to 20,000 miles or 2 years) is a C3 with a low 6ish TBN, far outstripping the performance of a fixed (short) termed life VW 50200 , whether in a C3 with higher 7ish TBN or an A3B4 with even higher 10ish TBN.
Type and quality of additive package in detergents/dispersants differentiates oil life ?
Inputs from gurus would be required ...


KameleON may have got it, a VW 50800 would have a detergent inhibitor in salicylate based.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4708859/re-vw-508-spec-0w20#Post4708859