High LTFT at idle, no vac leak

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Apr 8, 2012
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Washington
I had just finished a full writeup of my issue and my computer f***ing crashed. Rather than rewrite all of it, I'll just summarize my issue and hope for insightful and educational (for all) conversation that might help others diagnose similar issues.

Have a 97 Ranger, 2.3l. Had a vac leak and IAC valve stuck open, LTFT was ranging between 11% and 25% at idle, no CEL. Fixed vac leak, replaced IAC valve, reset ECU. LTFT now ranges between 11% and 20% at idle. It hangs around 10% under revving and 4-7% under load; this has not changed since before the repairs that have been done.

VERIFIED no existing vac leaks spraying carb cleaner on every vacuum connection, along every vacuum line, and every seal or gasket on the intake side of the engine.

Tested the following parts, none seem suspect: O2 sensors (up- and down-stream), evap solenoid, IAC valve (new and tested working).

Vacuum is in the 24-29psi range at idle. I see it drop sharply when i pull a vac line.

In my mind, that leaves the EGR valve (a massing PITA on this engine) or a fuel delivery issue (even bigger PITA) on this engine). Am I right in thinking there's not a whole lot else it could be?
 
A quick update, I just let the truck warmed up and revved to ~2300 RPM, LTFT dropped to and held at 4% for 30 seconds, immediately back to 20.3% when I let off the gas. This is new; previously, LTFT would have been 10% under that condition.

OBD reports 54psi fuel pressure, steady even under load. I'm not sure this ECU actually reads fuel pressure so that may be a false reading; if anyone can confirm that would be great.

Runs great off idle, too; it's like a brand new truck when it's rolling.
 
I would be surprised if it wasn't a vacuum leak if the trims correct under load.

A MAF sensor issue would normally cause a lean condition to worsen with load....Same with low fuel pressure.

Don't these have that foam rubber over the PCV vacuum hose making it difficult to locate a leak in the line with aerosols?

I don't recall the EGR valve being difficult on the SOHC 2.3L?

Throwing this out there.....Clearing the codes does NOT reset the fuel trims.

Using aerosols to find vacuum leaks is not always 100% conclusive, You may need to make a date with a Smoke Machine??
 
I also have a 2.3, but in a car - so the orientation might be different.

The Mazda owners seem to talk of a leak at the PCV value hose, which is buried deep and tough to get flammable spray into.

Taking a flier here....
 
Might be a good idea to smoke test this one , clean the MAF sensor as well. Many times carb spraying will not find every little leak there is.
 
Thank you, everyone, for the responses.

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Was this the vehicle that you used canola oil in?

LOL. No, that was a 2000 Corolla. The experiment ended when I sold the car back to the guy I bought it from. After buying it back from me, he short tripped it a lot and let it sit and it started acting up on him, though he never did bother identifying or fixing the issue so we aren't sure it was an oil related failure.

Conclusion: Running a blend of up to 75% canola is fine if you drive it frequently and get it hot when you drive it.

Blackstone seemed to agree, they even noted on my last UOA on that engine that they were interested to see future samples. Once I fix this fuel trim issue, it's likely that I'll run 25% canola in this engine, though, given the positive results I had with the Corolla.

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
I would be surprised if it wasn't a vacuum leak if the trims correct under load.

So would I, that's why I started there.

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
A MAF sensor issue would normally cause a lean condition to worsen with load....Same with low fuel pressure.

I may have forgotten to mention that I have cleaned and tested the MAF as well. It was in my original writeup, along with a lot of other details that will come out as they become relevant (including this not being the canola Corolla). I also agree on low fuel pressure, but an intermittent or failing injector could also cause this under certain conditions. Certain unlikely conditions (thankfully), which is why it was at the bottom of the list.

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Don't these have that foam rubber over the PCV vacuum hose making it difficult to locate a leak in the line with aerosols?

You know, I hadn't considered the PCV system, in part because I know it's a real [censored] to get to the PCV valve on this thing and in part because I've been busy replacing known faulty parts (ignition coils measuring out of spec, plug wires that had weak insulation and were damaged during the coil replacement, spark plugs that were visibly arcing over after the coil and wire replacement, air box that didn't seal properly, IAC valve, a couple collapsed lifters, just to name a handful). This was a mechanic's truck for 21 years. Note that I did not say a *good* mechanic; a lot of parts on this thing seem to be parts that were bad enough to convince a customer they needed replacement, but better than what was on the truck so they went on the truck instead of in the scrap bin.

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
I don't recall the EGR valve being difficult on the SOHC 2.3L?

I would imagine if the engine were rotated 90 degrees for a front wheel drive configuration, that would be the case. I actually ended up pulling it for inspection and cleaning this afternoon and it was a [censored] getting a wrench on the EGR tube nut because of how it's located 1/2" from the firewall in a RWD vehicle.

There was no discernible gasket to be found. There is now. LTFT dropped from 20.3% to 17.8% after resetting ECU and going for a spirited drive. STFT does what it's supposed to do, staying in the +/- 5% range and adjusting for realtime conditions.

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Throwing this out there.....Clearing the codes does NOT reset the fuel trims.

Good information for this thread. Thanks for mentioning it, since I didn't indicate that I was pulling power from ECU after each repair. That said, LTFT will correct over time after a repair -- just as it will drift out of spec over time when a repair is needed -- and I've got over 10k logged on this engine in total (detail from my original writeup that didn't make it into what finally got posted).

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Using aerosols to find vacuum leaks is not always 100% conclusive, You may need to make a date with a Smoke Machine??

Clearly the case, as my EGR had to be leaking with no gasket in there. I'll see about getting into a shop for a smoke test since I don't have budget to buy a smoke machine at the moment. Before I do that, I'll look into the PCV valve as I'm sure it needs replaced anyway, given everything else I've found with this truck.

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
A lot of the newer Fords do have a fuel rail pressure transducer. I do not recall one on a 1997 model though.

I think you're right, as OBD-II reports 54.8psi and the spec for this engine is 30-35. Overpressure would have the opposite effect, high *negative* fuel trims, and I'm not seeing that.

Originally Posted By: The Critic
We need your short term and long term fuel trims in order to understand what is going on.

I gave you the long term under various conditions, short term is constantly changing so kind of hard to just give that. You'll have to make do with the following:

When I pull power to the ECU, LTFT starts at 0 and STFT is high positive at idle. LTFT creeps up as I drive and STFT trends downward until STFT begins behaving normally and LTFT settles at whatever it is going to be after my last repair. In short, if I didn't report a detail, it is likely that detail is normal.

So you don't have to hunt for the info higher up in the post: currently LTFT is 17.8%, after replacing a missing EGR valve gasket and going for a spirited drive. Difference in idle after the repair was notable and STFT is doing what it should do, so I think that's where it's gonna stop this time.

Anyone I didn't quote or reply to directly, I simply didn't feel like repeating myself and you can find my response where I responded to whoever beat you to the punch. I do appreciate each and every one of your replies.
 
That was one of my thoughts, like one or more isn't kicking on quick enough to respond to a short pulse. Techron, Lucas fuel system cleaner, MMO, and Cataclean have all been used, to no avail for this particular issue.

Techron is a twice-a-year treatment on all my vehicles, Lucas every few tanks. MMO gets thrown in when there's any sort of top-end issue or when I first acquire a vehicle. Cataclean was an attempt to save my downstream O2 sensor as it's pretty well rust-welded in place, and that was a success.

About to go dig around for the PCV valve and see what's up there.
 
Guy at the parts store I bought my PVC valve from was a retired ASE mechanic, so I ran this past him. He agrees, given everything I've already checked and replaced, that it's likely an intermittently faulty injector, especially after mentioning a stalling issue that didn't make it into my repost.

That said, I pulled the PCV valve *and* grommet, cleaned the grommet and the hole it goes into, RTV'd it in place, put a small amount of RTV on the PCV valve as well, and LTFT dropped to 10.7 with 5 minutes of idling. I did NOT reset the ECU with this repair; usually I have to drive it to get LTFT to move at all after I f*** with it. I'm satisfied that this is the ultimate cause of my high positive fuel trims.

Now, the stalling issue, which I'd put in its own thread if I were sure it were unrelated:

Right after hard acelleration, if I pop into neutral or depress the clutch pedal, it's prone to just stalling out. No shimmy or shudder, no backfire, engine just shuts down. If I turn the key or come up off the clutch it starts right back up with no issue.

I don't know if this staling issue persists since the PCV valve replacement; the reason I only idled it is that I have some stuff going on at the house right now that prevents me from taking it out for a test drive. I'll report on that particular issue this evening, whether it still exists or not. It's fairly repeatable and I can make it happen about 90% of the time I try (when not in traffic, of course!!!!!).

For the moment, I'm satisfied that the PCV valve was the culprit for the fuel trims. Thank you to everyone who has posted so far, especially clinebarger, mehullica, and Chester11 for suggesting the PVC valve.

clinebarger, to answer you specifically, there may have been a foam bit over it from the factory but it was not present on mine.

Chester11 it takes some doing but you can actually get an angle on it if you've got the smaller can and a long spray straw. After taking the old PCV out, cleaning it, and reinstalling it, I was able to get the engine to rev a bit by spraying the PCV valve.
 
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Guy at the parts store I bought my PVC valve from was a retired ASE mechanic, so I ran this past him. He agrees, given everything I've already checked and replaced, that it's likely an intermittently faulty injector, especially after mentioning a stalling issue that didn't make it into my repost.

Right after hard acceleration, if I pop into neutral or depress the clutch pedal, it's prone to just stalling out. No shimmy or shudder, no backfire, engine just shuts down. If I turn the key or come up off the clutch it starts right back up with no issue.


I'm not sold on it being an injector, A shorted Injector can cause stalling issues especially the old GM Multec's.....But they would act-up "hot" & at random.


*Does the speedometer work/Is the scan tool showing a accurate speed reading? The PCM uses the VSS signal for closed throttle decel IAC control calculations.

*Did someone monkey with the throttle plate stop screw? You mentioned high idle/faulty IAC motor. I like to see slightly above 1.00VDC TPS voltage at closed throttle on a Ford.....If lower than that, The throttle stop screw was most likely tampered with.

*Perform a KOER self test.....The IAC will cycle & RPM will vary letting you know the IAC motor is working properly.
 
Speedo works. Speedo itself is off a bit above 50 due to wear, ECU speed is off by 7% (vs GPS speed) due to larger tires (need to change out the speed sensor gear ring at some point) but not enough to cause this. At any rate, the issue didn't track with the larger tires, it started about 7k miles after. At any rate, in neutral (e.g. when I depress the clutch pedal) the VSS is irrelevant -- further proven by the fact that I can stall it out by revving it while sitting still.

As for someone monkeying with the throttle plate screw: yes. It was me, this afternoon, because I had the same thought. TPS is fine, though I will go back and re-adjust with the info you've provided.

As mentioned above, IAC has been replaced; this was after failing the very test you suggested and the current unit is known good.

I chose to answer your questions and reply to your points BEFORE stating that I have a definitive diagnosis after my drive this evening, so that others might learn when what you've suggested (all of which was spot on, thank you for that) should and should not apply. Now, on to the diagnosis, and why I did not reach it sooner: Failed EGR vacuum solenoid.

After replacing the lifters, which I knew were collapsed and needed replaced regardless of any other issues, the stalling issue began; fuel trim issue predated that even. Working on both issues in parallel (I know, solve one at a time -- turns out I took the correct approach, though, as the two issues turned out to be related), I first checked for vac leaks, found a couple connections that were "questionable", and fixed those. LTFT 25% -> 23.4%.

I then tested the IAC valve, as that being stuck open could cause the high fuel trims at idle and being stuck closed could cause the stalling. Found it stuck open intermittently and replaced it. LTFT -> 21.8%.

Observes spark plugs in the dark to look for arcing, saw none, concluded they were at least all in one piece (this was incorrect, we'll observe shortly). Pulled them all to check gap and general condition, they were all light tan as they should be, none were wet, gap was off slightly on all plugs, but by the same amount; adjusted and reinstalled. No change in LTFT (none expected) or stalling issue.

Tested plug wires. All checked within spec.

Tested ignition coils. All 4 coil pairs (2 on each pack, 2 packs on this engine because waste spark) tested out of range, though primaries were all bang-on 1ohm. Replaced coil packs. No change in LTFT (none expected) or stalling issue.

HOWEVER: Old coil backs were providing weak spark. We'll get to that, because I screwed up pulling my wires and snapped two of them at the spark plug end. I attempted (and failed) to properly reattach the terminals and ended up replacing the wires. Again, no change... now, back to the coils.

With new coils and wires, I could see two plugs arcing through their ceramic insulators -- spark bright enough that I noticed it in daylight. Replaced plugs, no change.

Thus far everything I've replaced was *actually* faulty, simply not the cause of my problem; all of it would have been replaced within the next month or so *anyway*.

Pulled the DPFE sensor for inspection. The nipples the silicone tubing connected to were badly caked in yellow corrosion. Cleaned this off, reattached, LTFT -> 20.3%

Pulled the ERG valve for inspection and cleaning. Noted absence of gasket and proper function of valve. Installed new gasket, installed newly cleaned and tested valve. LTFT -> 17.8%

Given that servicing the EGR valve showed an improvement, I foolishly ruled out the EGR vacuum solenoid at this point.

On the suggestion of several BITOG members in this very thread, I inspected the PCV valve. Seemed okay but for $6 what the [censored]. Replaced it, LTFT 10.7% after idling for a few minutes. LTFT dropped to 9.4% while driving.

My expectation was to see an improvement if the PCV valve was the issue and no change if the issue was an injector. PCV valve confirmed as the issue... until:

On that same drive, as soon as the ECU called for the EGR valve to open, LTFT shot back up to 14.8%.

ECU called for 9% EGR, EGR error reported as 100%. Dirty EGR wasn't closing all the way and I had previously assumed my OBD reader was faulty (it is, but that's another issue altogether) and the EGR error values I was seeing were random garbage. Now that I had a properly closing EGR valve and an EGR error of 100%, it all made sense.

The EGR vacuum solenoid I previously ruled out is the culprit (as were several other issues I fixed -- I had a number of vac leaks here). Verified by:

1: Checking for vacuum at the line that plugs into the EGR valve while ECU was calling for EGR valve open: none present
2: Checking for vacuum at the nipple that line plugs into on the solenoid while ECU was calling for EGR valve open: none present
3: Checking for vacuum at the vacuum source that plugs into the solenoid: present
4: Checking for proper electrical signal to solenoid: present

There you have it, folks. My LTFT was trending toward 0 and had entered the acceptable +- 10% range, then the ECU called for EGR and everything went to [censored].

It was rush hour, so I didn't take it on the freeway to test whether the stalling issue was still present at speed, but did confirm it is gone when revving while stopped, even at 14.8% positive fuel trim. Not even a shimmy from it.

Since my fuel trim only hits that level at idle while hot and I don't leave the truck idling (except for diagnostic purposes, as required) I may or may not fix this immediately. It depends if the stalling issue persists next time I take it on the freeway.

At the end of the day, it's really no danger to the cat since I don't idle the truck. The stalling issue was my real concern once I got initial (cold) LTFT in range.

Thank you to everyone who posted; I'm calling this one resolved, for the moment.
 
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So, I wanted to note that Ive found a way to find small vacuum leaks with just carb cleaner.
At least on my ford Im capable of doing this, and thats to use Forscan on my laptop through a Bluetooth OBDII reader, to monitor the STFT and plot it out.


Youll notice when I give the EGR a shot the engine sound doesnt change. But the PCM definetly saw it. It compensated so fast that it makes trying to do this by ear basically worthless.
This mothed is sensitive enough just spraying in the general area of the EGR would cause a distortion.
I will also add that I replaced this EGR with a new Motorcraft and it does the same thing, so it may just be a thing that EGRs leak a bit around the seal? IDK the motor went TU before I had a chance to mess with it again.
 
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Wow. Well, this is NOT resolved. Not by a long shot!

I replaced the faulty EGR solenoid and fuel trims shot back up to 25%!!!!!

Vac leak between EGR solenoid and valve? New solenoid leaking? Not sure, letting the engine cool down a bit and will investigate. Either way, the EGR solenoid I replaced was nonresponsive and needed replaced.

Makes sense if there was a vac leak between the EGR solenoid and valve that replacing a dead solenoid would reveal it. If not, and if the solenoid itself isn't leaking vacuum, we're back to a marginal or intermittently faulty injector, as I've already gone over everything else mentioned here and everything the mechanic I consulted (again today) could come up with.

Anything missing from this thread, aside from a resolution?
 
Okay. Resolved. I feel dumb.

Mind you, everything I replaced *did* test bad, so not *that* dumb.

There's a short bit of hose that connects a nipple on the throttle body to the evap line. The one that was on the truck when I bought it was brittle and cracked, so I sought to replace it; I couldn't find a piece that was the right size for the nipple on the throttle body (larger) on one end and the nipple on the evap line (smaller) on the other end. The piece I was replacing was definitely the wrong kind of tubing, seemed like washer fluid line, probably why it failed. I replaced it with emissions tubing which doesn't really stretch well, so I had to size it for the larger end and use a clamp on the smaller end.

All was well when I initially installed it, but I disturbed it when I replaced my lifters (the throttle body has to come off to get at the valve cover), which caused the mother of all vacuum leaks.

Because it was held on with a clamp, I never would have suspected it except that last night I gave the clamp a couple turns to tighten it and it snapped. Well, no change after it snapped so I thought it was all good. When I replaced the EGR solenoid, moving the vacuum lines that plug into it disturbed this evap connection enough that my vacuum dropped from 28psi to 12psi.

WHOOPSIE.

When I got it home, I pulled every vacuum line and pressure tested all of them. All tested good; then, I remembered having snapped the clamp last night.

Ended up taking the throttle body off again, cleaned everything up, applied RTV to the small end (which I hadn't done previously), slid it on, tightened it up again with a new clamp, reinstalled the throttle body, and pulled power to the ECU to reset it.

Went on an hour drive, idle LTFT settled in at 7.8%. Acceptable for a 21 year old trick.

Also, while I had the vacuum lines all pulled out and removed from their looming, I cleaned the lines, cleaned the looming, re-loomed them all, and taped the looming up nicely, so removing the lines wasn't a complete waste.

Idle is smooth as butter, acceleration is nice and even, and it drives like a new truck (aside from the bad suspension).

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in.
 
Ugh... Well...

I'm current;y sitting at 6psi vacuum and 17.8% LTFT, STFT cycling +/- as it should so LTFT is stable at 17.8%

Thing is, I can't identify a leak *anywhere*

I've pulled and pressure tested every vacuum line, and all hold vacuum for at least the 10 minutes I tested them. I capped off every vacuum port and vacuum stayed at 6psi.

IAC, EGR, and throttle body gaskets are known good seals. IAC gasket is brand new, was replaced with the IAC valve last week. EGR gasket is brand new; there WASN'T one before I installed it this week. Throttle body gasket is brand new, replaced yesterday when I pulled the throttle body to address the vacuum leak from my previous post.

Unless someone can suggest something else for me to look at, I guess my next steps are to replace the intake manifold and plenum gaskets. I do have them on hand, I just don't want to use them *now* if they're not the problem.

Possible bad vacuum sensor giving faulty vacuum readings? That wouldn't explain the fuel trims, but it would sure explain the erratic vacuum readings in the face of an apparently lack of actual vacuum leak. This is a CA emissions engine, so MAF with no MAP; not sure what sensor the ECU uses to determine vacuum pressure, or where it is, so any help finding that would be useful. My google-fu hs not strong tonight.

ANYONE have any ideas?

EDIT: It just dawned on me that the fuel pressure regulator diaphragm might be leaking. That would account for high positive fuel trims at idle, as well as loss of vacuum. I'm leaning toward this possibility more and more as I think about it, because idle doesn't change at all when I disconnect and close off the vac line going to the fuel pressure regulator. The idle surges for the moment between when I unplug it and when I cap it off, but then it goes right back to where it was.

I'll throw a vac gauge and a vac pump on just the regulator in the morning (engine off) and see if it holds vacuum. If it does, I'll head to HF and pick up a fuel pressure test gauge to see if it's, perhaps, failed in some other way.

Every line that I pressure tested yesterday (when it went back together with 28psi vacuum) was tested again today when vacuum dropped to 6psi. That fuel pressure regulator is really the only thing I haven't f***ed with yet.
 
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The MAP you are reading is calculated from MAF. It wasnt until later when Ford upgraded the EGR to the ESM (EGR system module) that they were able to get a real MAP signal.
Since you have a vac leak, your MAF reading will be wrong and therefore your MAP will be wrong.
Also, dont count out the PCV system. You can have leaks at engine seals/gaskets that are drawing in air, and it goes into the engine behind the MAF, aka unmetered air.
 
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