Rand the APR tune is 100% a canned tune. You drive in, hand them $500, and you drive out 30 minutes later.
All things are possible with boost.
All things are possible with boost.
Tunes and what they claim vs reality
- Thread starter ram_man
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Chassis Dyno's can be way off, Don't get to caught up in numbers. Dynojet is notorious for producing "Dyno-Queen" numbers without the trap speeds to back it up. I like Mustang dyno's better as they produce more real world numbers!
If you have no mods, why even bother with a dyno tune? Canned tune seems like a cheap way to add 40%(!) more power on an otherwise stock car. I could see a dyno tune on a hot rod, but I am sure they have hours of data on a stock config and know how to make it shine.
Also a great way to screw the next owner of your car if you remove it and hide the evidence.
Also a great way to screw the next owner of your car if you remove it and hide the evidence.
I once owned an 07' WRX. I bought it new, tuned it at 60K and sold it with 136K on it.
I used a Cobb AccessPort which I bought from Perrin Performance which included a stage 2 tune. I also installed a Perrin catted downpipe. No other hardware mods were done to the car.
The Perrin stage 2 tune was great. I thought I could do better and had it tuned on an AWD dyno. The custom tune had more torque down low but less HP in the upper RPM range. I flashed back the Perrin tune and never looked back. I'll post a dyno sheet tomorrow morning if I can find it.
The turbo was feeling tired towards the end of my owning the car. I informed the buyer of it.
I used a Cobb AccessPort which I bought from Perrin Performance which included a stage 2 tune. I also installed a Perrin catted downpipe. No other hardware mods were done to the car.
The Perrin stage 2 tune was great. I thought I could do better and had it tuned on an AWD dyno. The custom tune had more torque down low but less HP in the upper RPM range. I flashed back the Perrin tune and never looked back. I'll post a dyno sheet tomorrow morning if I can find it.
The turbo was feeling tired towards the end of my owning the car. I informed the buyer of it.
My 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 had a Mazdaspeed CAI and a Hypertech tune and was running great at 158k when I traded it for the 2er. I'll add a tune to the 2er after I install an LSD. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but right now I'm lucky if I can run the 1/8 mile in under 8.6 seconds.
Tuning is wildly platform specific, needs tons of details to see what is possible on one particular model.
FWIW, my sig car runs identical 1/4 mile times stock and with a canned tune. Feels much better but not really any more HP.
As stated, boost changes everything. Wire the waste gate shut and make some crazy hp, but for how long?
FWIW, my sig car runs identical 1/4 mile times stock and with a canned tune. Feels much better but not really any more HP.
As stated, boost changes everything. Wire the waste gate shut and make some crazy hp, but for how long?
Talking about a totally different platform here, but I know the FXT tuners' community took a big hit when people tuning the newer FA20DIT/CVT models starting having tranny problems shortly after the mods. Seems like the word on the street is that ~300hp was the limit to keep the CVT alive and many were questioning the wisdom of tuning at all given that stock is 250hp and maybe even something like 275hp might be trouble over time.
I guess the old 4EAT was really sturdy and could deal with radical tunes, but I have to admit that when I test drove a Forester around 2006 I thought that tranny felt worse than the one in the '76 Nova that was given to me as a college graduation present...I see crazy low 0-60 times quoted for stock auto FXTs from that time and just can't imagine how they are possible!
I guess the old 4EAT was really sturdy and could deal with radical tunes, but I have to admit that when I test drove a Forester around 2006 I thought that tranny felt worse than the one in the '76 Nova that was given to me as a college graduation present...I see crazy low 0-60 times quoted for stock auto FXTs from that time and just can't imagine how they are possible!
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Talking about a totally different platform here, but I know the FXT tuners' community took a big hit when people tuning the newer FA20DIT/CVT models starting having tranny problems shortly after the mods. Seems like the word on the street is that ~300hp was the limit to keep the CVT alive and many were questioning the wisdom of tuning at all given that stock is 250hp and maybe even something like 275hp might be trouble over time.
I guess the old 4EAT was really sturdy and could deal with radical tunes, but I have to admit that when I test drove a Forester around 2006 I thought that tranny felt worse than the one in the '76 Nova that was given to me as a college graduation present...I see crazy low 0-60 times quoted for stock auto FXTs from that time and just can't imagine how they are possible!
The MS3 motor is only good for @300 hp before you have to beef up the internals.
Talking about a totally different platform here, but I know the FXT tuners' community took a big hit when people tuning the newer FA20DIT/CVT models starting having tranny problems shortly after the mods. Seems like the word on the street is that ~300hp was the limit to keep the CVT alive and many were questioning the wisdom of tuning at all given that stock is 250hp and maybe even something like 275hp might be trouble over time.
I guess the old 4EAT was really sturdy and could deal with radical tunes, but I have to admit that when I test drove a Forester around 2006 I thought that tranny felt worse than the one in the '76 Nova that was given to me as a college graduation present...I see crazy low 0-60 times quoted for stock auto FXTs from that time and just can't imagine how they are possible!
The MS3 motor is only good for @300 hp before you have to beef up the internals.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
[
Here you go!
That car also has almost 50% more displacement and its a dyno tune not a canned tune.
I think 40hp is by far the max you would get with a canned tune. on a 1.4L Turbo
anything more and you would be either blowing up motors without dyno tuning or would run like total poo.
IIRC stock it is 160hp engine hp NOT "to the wheels" so getting to 200hp on the dyno would take some mod support to go with the tune.
Engine is 184 hp stock about 150-160 to the wheels
That's a rather broad range, but if we go by it, the average results in about 18% drivetrain loss (155HP to the tires), if we continue with that figure then your 230whp results in ~270HP flywheel, which is almost 100HP gain, in an engine with a displacement of 1.4L, which means factory it is already at a very high density of 131HP/L and we are increasing it to 193HP/L, which is ridiculously high.
Compared to rooflessVW's example, which is the Mark VII Golf with a 2L engine producing 217HP stock (108HP/L) and the aforementioned 80HP gain, that puts it at about 300HP flywheel, which is 150HP/L. That VW would need to produce 386HP to match our 193HP/L figure.
I'd be concerned about it staying together at that power level.
Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
[
Here you go!
That car also has almost 50% more displacement and its a dyno tune not a canned tune.
I think 40hp is by far the max you would get with a canned tune. on a 1.4L Turbo
anything more and you would be either blowing up motors without dyno tuning or would run like total poo.
IIRC stock it is 160hp engine hp NOT "to the wheels" so getting to 200hp on the dyno would take some mod support to go with the tune.
Engine is 184 hp stock about 150-160 to the wheels
That's a rather broad range, but if we go by it, the average results in about 18% drivetrain loss (155HP to the tires), if we continue with that figure then your 230whp results in ~270HP flywheel, which is almost 100HP gain, in an engine with a displacement of 1.4L, which means factory it is already at a very high density of 131HP/L and we are increasing it to 193HP/L, which is ridiculously high.
Compared to rooflessVW's example, which is the Mark VII Golf with a 2L engine producing 217HP stock (108HP/L) and the aforementioned 80HP gain, that puts it at about 300HP flywheel, which is 150HP/L. That VW would need to produce 386HP to match our 193HP/L figure.
I'd be concerned about it staying together at that power level.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
160 to 230? 70 HP. I don't know how much boost does it make to get there?
70 in a turbo car isn't unrealistic.
I know a tune will help a lot of cars even the N/A ones. Like for my truck I did it to change torque converter lock up when towing.
On my WS6 bone stock a dyno tune netted me 22 HP at the wheels with no other modifications. Most stock LS1 cars will pick up anywhere from 15 to 40 RWHP depending on the year and what car it is in.
Most guys with the 6.0 Caprices are gaining 30 to 40 hp at the wheels with a good dyno tune. I have one planned for next month.
I agree. My 87 Buick GN (which I still have) ran factory 12-13psi of boost. The 1st mod I did was an Applied technologies and Research "pit bull" Chip which allowed 16-18psi of boost and I gained a phenominal amount of power for a small amount of money and 5 mins of work. That was back in '87 and today's tunes are much more precise.
160 to 230? 70 HP. I don't know how much boost does it make to get there?
70 in a turbo car isn't unrealistic.
I know a tune will help a lot of cars even the N/A ones. Like for my truck I did it to change torque converter lock up when towing.
On my WS6 bone stock a dyno tune netted me 22 HP at the wheels with no other modifications. Most stock LS1 cars will pick up anywhere from 15 to 40 RWHP depending on the year and what car it is in.
Most guys with the 6.0 Caprices are gaining 30 to 40 hp at the wheels with a good dyno tune. I have one planned for next month.
I agree. My 87 Buick GN (which I still have) ran factory 12-13psi of boost. The 1st mod I did was an Applied technologies and Research "pit bull" Chip which allowed 16-18psi of boost and I gained a phenominal amount of power for a small amount of money and 5 mins of work. That was back in '87 and today's tunes are much more precise.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Engine is 184 hp stock about 150-160 to the wheels
So which engine do you have? I thought the 2.4 N/A tigershark was 184
and the 1.4T was 160?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Dart_(PF)#Engines
Does not compute.
Engine is 184 hp stock about 150-160 to the wheels
So which engine do you have? I thought the 2.4 N/A tigershark was 184
and the 1.4T was 160?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Dart_(PF)#Engines
Does not compute.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
160 to 230? 70 HP. I don't know how much boost does it make to get there?
70 in a turbo car isn't unrealistic.
I know a tune will help a lot of cars even the N/A ones. Like for my truck I did it to change torque converter lock up when towing.
On my WS6 bone stock a dyno tune netted me 22 HP at the wheels with no other modifications. Most stock LS1 cars will pick up anywhere from 15 to 40 RWHP depending on the year and what car it is in.
Most guys with the 6.0 Caprices are gaining 30 to 40 hp at the wheels with a good dyno tune. I have one planned for next month.
I spend a lot of time in the Corvette forums (LS1s) and I've seen plenty of guys getting decent gains on completely stock cars just by doing a tune. Most factory tunes are setup too lean...
160 to 230? 70 HP. I don't know how much boost does it make to get there?
70 in a turbo car isn't unrealistic.
I know a tune will help a lot of cars even the N/A ones. Like for my truck I did it to change torque converter lock up when towing.
On my WS6 bone stock a dyno tune netted me 22 HP at the wheels with no other modifications. Most stock LS1 cars will pick up anywhere from 15 to 40 RWHP depending on the year and what car it is in.
Most guys with the 6.0 Caprices are gaining 30 to 40 hp at the wheels with a good dyno tune. I have one planned for next month.
I spend a lot of time in the Corvette forums (LS1s) and I've seen plenty of guys getting decent gains on completely stock cars just by doing a tune. Most factory tunes are setup too lean...
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Definitely possible with a turbo, though it may need supporting mods as others have said. How long it will live at that power level? That's a whole other discussion.
That's the truth. The weakest part in the engine will fail quickly and its usually in the bottom end, head gasket or turbo components.
Personally I have no time for these Mickey Mouse store box tunes. Tuning is great if you have a desired outcome and have done the necessary work to support it.
Manufacturers don't usually over build internals to hold to a lot more HP that what they deliver it with, I hear stuff like "it has the same crank as this other engine which makes more HP" yes but the other engine has forged rods and your doesn't. Fail!
Definitely possible with a turbo, though it may need supporting mods as others have said. How long it will live at that power level? That's a whole other discussion.
That's the truth. The weakest part in the engine will fail quickly and its usually in the bottom end, head gasket or turbo components.
Personally I have no time for these Mickey Mouse store box tunes. Tuning is great if you have a desired outcome and have done the necessary work to support it.
Manufacturers don't usually over build internals to hold to a lot more HP that what they deliver it with, I hear stuff like "it has the same crank as this other engine which makes more HP" yes but the other engine has forged rods and your doesn't. Fail!
Yes, some manufacturers have some margin up their sleeves for future marketing upgrades.
Some manutfacturers have been known to install a fully assembled 6 speed auto trans with a 5 speed valve body on it so that they can sell a 5 speed today, and upgrade to a 6 speed in later model years.
But tuners don't have any ability to do the lifecycle performance/reliability testing to give you what they promise.
Making more power/torque ALWAYS involves more stresses on components
Some manutfacturers have been known to install a fully assembled 6 speed auto trans with a 5 speed valve body on it so that they can sell a 5 speed today, and upgrade to a 6 speed in later model years.
But tuners don't have any ability to do the lifecycle performance/reliability testing to give you what they promise.
Making more power/torque ALWAYS involves more stresses on components
+1 For sure they have some margin the question is how much. I hate playing with unknowns and hoping for the best.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
160 to 230? 70 HP. I don't know how much boost does it make to get there?
70 in a turbo car isn't unrealistic.
I know a tune will help a lot of cars even the N/A ones. Like for my truck I did it to change torque converter lock up when towing.
On my WS6 bone stock a dyno tune netted me 22 HP at the wheels with no other modifications. Most stock LS1 cars will pick up anywhere from 15 to 40 RWHP depending on the year and what car it is in.
Most guys with the 6.0 Caprices are gaining 30 to 40 hp at the wheels with a good dyno tune. I have one planned for next month.
I spend a lot of time in the Corvette forums (LS1s) and I've seen plenty of guys getting decent gains on completely stock cars just by doing a tune. Most factory tunes are setup too lean...
Yeah it is pretty amazing what can be done with a tune on any ls/lt based GM mill.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
160 to 230? 70 HP. I don't know how much boost does it make to get there?
70 in a turbo car isn't unrealistic.
I know a tune will help a lot of cars even the N/A ones. Like for my truck I did it to change torque converter lock up when towing.
On my WS6 bone stock a dyno tune netted me 22 HP at the wheels with no other modifications. Most stock LS1 cars will pick up anywhere from 15 to 40 RWHP depending on the year and what car it is in.
Most guys with the 6.0 Caprices are gaining 30 to 40 hp at the wheels with a good dyno tune. I have one planned for next month.
I spend a lot of time in the Corvette forums (LS1s) and I've seen plenty of guys getting decent gains on completely stock cars just by doing a tune. Most factory tunes are setup too lean...
Yeah it is pretty amazing what can be done with a tune on any ls/lt based GM mill.
Contemplating this tune for my 2017 Buick Regal GS
https://www.trifectaperformance.com/foru...urbo-advantage/
https://www.trifectaperformance.com/foru...urbo-advantage/
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