Honda 5W20 Virgin Sample

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joee12

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Location
Savannah, GA
Here is a virgin analysis of Honda 5W20 oil out of a quart bottle done by Terry Dyson:

Oil Brand/Weight : Honda brand 5w-20
Type Equipment : clean oil ?
Miles/Hours on oil : clean
Total Miles/Hours : clean

Results ppm/% Comments (blank=normal)
Wear
Copper 0
Iron 0
Chromium 0
Lead 0
Aluminum 1
Silicon 0
Tin 0

Additives
Molybdenum 242 high level for EP/AW
Sodium 0
Magnesium 13
Zinc 928
Potassium 0
Phosphorus 808
Calcium 2130

Physical Properties
Water negative
Fuel negative
Antifreeze negative
Soot 0
Oxidation 0 scale 0-199
Nitration 0 scale 0-199
Sulfur 0
TBN 9
Vis@100 C 9.8 30w perfect

Final Comments : "Joe, Confirm this is a clean honda brand oil, non syn. They are relying on Moly for EP/AW and oxidation resistance based on low Mg level in clean oil. Looks like a well built oil, I wonder if Petro Canada makes it. Good calcium level also. TBN is above average.The lab sent me the listing as 5w-30 which is what the
> viscosity reads at. 9.8 cSt. 9.3 to 12.49 = SAE 30w. Esters of some sort are being used also that bolster the strength of the TBN values. It is probably a Group2+/ 3 oil that is made by PC or
Shell,possibly Conoco. This test is blind to the esters so I am making an experienced judgement about that. If it is Mobil drive clean I would be
surprised. So the 5w-20 is really a thin 5w-30 !"

This oil I get from the dealership at a very low cost in quart bottles, noy bulk. I just drained the factory fill at 3700 miles, and just put this oil in my sisters 2003 Civic EX, and should have the results after 3000 miles in a couple of months. -Joe
 
Very interesting! I wonder how many other 5w20 oils out there are going to actually test out to be 5w30s??

This oil looks to have a real nice antiwear package in it too, a healthy dose of moly along with a bit higher than usual zinc and ph too (compared to some other oils we've seen lately which are down around 6-700ppm)

Anyone worried about having to run a 5w20 oil to satisfy their warranty need not worry with this oil, it looks to offer some pretty decent protection! I'm very interested to see the UOA results on this oil!!

I too wonder who makes this oil for Honda.

I'd be interested in seeing other 5w20 VOAs to see how they stack up. Anyone care to send in some Castrol GTX 5w20? Or Pennzoil 5w20?
 
Makes you wonder if they are out of compliance with their API certification by labeling it a 5w20 when it is really a 5w30. This is every bit a 5w30 as a Mobil 1.

This looks like a good oil formulation to me.

[ January 07, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Giles ]
 
Back in August member, "Henry", posted this letter (the link is dead now):
quote:
Attention ExxonMobil Distributor:
ExxonMobil Corporation is pleased to announce the availability of Honda Genuine Motor Oil 5W-20 in bulk to our nationwide PVL distributor network.
As you may be aware, many Honda Automotive dealers are expressing a high level of interest in purchasing 5W-20 product in bulk. This is primarily because Honda now specifies the use of 5W-20 viscosity grade motor oil in its new vehicles. Several other OEMs also specify 5W-20 for their new vehicles, including Ford. Other major car manufacturers, such as Toyota and GM, are considering moving in this direction as well. Hence, there is a growing demand for 5W-20 in the automotive market place, particularly in the installed and car dealer segments.
The PVL Line of Business has made a commitment to Amercian Honda Motor Co. to offer Honda 5W-20 in bulk by May 1, 2002 to satisfy the demand from Honda dealers. As such, fulfilling Honda dealers' bulk orders is essential to maintaining our successful relationship with American Honda.
The Honda Genuine Motor Oil Bulk Program offers a unique combination of competitive pricing, an outstanding product line-up, and an unprecedented level of product distribution. The addition of 5W-20 to this bulk program is an exciting new opportunity to grow our business. Please note that American Honda dealers received a complete set of marketing materials describing the bulk program. You can order these Dealer Guides from Sales Support Services.
The Honda Genuine Motor Oil Bulk 5W-20 product provides you with an excellent business opportunity, and will help you to stay on the leading edge of high-performance, advanced technology lubricant distribution. Further, you can position yourself for growth, as the demand for 5W-20 motor oil increases within the installed segment. We believe distributors who participate in the 5W-20 bulk program should be able to quickly capitalize on other opportunities in your area as they arise.
Thank you for your consideration of this exciting new product!

Sincerely,
Marni Mirowitz
ExxonMobil, Lubricants & Petroleum Specialties Company
PVL Marketing Manager
Click to expand...
So this is pretty strong evidence that Honda oil is made by Mobil (at least in the US).

Thanks for the analysis, joee12. You beat me to it. I was going to do VOA on Mobil Drive Clean 5w-20 and compare to Honda 5w-20 but I can't find MDC 5w-20 anywhere in this county! I called Mobil about the basestocks in Drive Clean 5w-20 and the tech rep said all Group III.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
Back in August member, "Henry", posted this letter (the link is dead now):
quote:
Attention ExxonMobil Distributor:
ExxonMobil Corporation is pleased to announce the availability of Honda Genuine Motor Oil 5W-20 in bulk to our nationwide PVL distributor network.
As you may be aware, many Honda Automotive dealers are expressing a high level of interest in purchasing 5W-20 product in bulk. This is primarily because Honda now specifies the use of 5W-20 viscosity grade motor oil in its new vehicles. Several other OEMs also specify 5W-20 for their new vehicles, including Ford. Other major car manufacturers, such as Toyota and GM, are considering moving in this direction as well. Hence, there is a growing demand for 5W-20 in the automotive market place, particularly in the installed and car dealer segments.
The PVL Line of Business has made a commitment to Amercian Honda Motor Co. to offer Honda 5W-20 in bulk by May 1, 2002 to satisfy the demand from Honda dealers. As such, fulfilling Honda dealers' bulk orders is essential to maintaining our successful relationship with American Honda.
The Honda Genuine Motor Oil Bulk Program offers a unique combination of competitive pricing, an outstanding product line-up, and an unprecedented level of product distribution. The addition of 5W-20 to this bulk program is an exciting new opportunity to grow our business. Please note that American Honda dealers received a complete set of marketing materials describing the bulk program. You can order these Dealer Guides from Sales Support Services.
The Honda Genuine Motor Oil Bulk 5W-20 product provides you with an excellent business opportunity, and will help you to stay on the leading edge of high-performance, advanced technology lubricant distribution. Further, you can position yourself for growth, as the demand for 5W-20 motor oil increases within the installed segment. We believe distributors who participate in the 5W-20 bulk program should be able to quickly capitalize on other opportunities in your area as they arise.
Thank you for your consideration of this exciting new product!

Sincerely,
Marni Mirowitz
ExxonMobil, Lubricants & Petroleum Specialties Company
PVL Marketing Manager
Click to expand...
So this is pretty strong evidence that Honda oil is made by Mobil (at least in the US).

Thanks for the analysis, joee12. You beat me to it. I was going to do VOA on Mobil Drive Clean 5w-20 and compare to Honda 5w-20 but I can't find MDC 5w-20 anywhere in this county! I called Mobil about the basestocks in Drive Clean 5w-20 and the tech rep said all Group III.
Click to expand...
No sweat Jay!!! Hopefully we will see some good results from my sister's car with this oil. We will have to wait and see.

offtopic.gif
Jay, I drove both the RSX and the RSX-S. While the RSX-S is a screamer, I will probably go with the 160 HP RSX(unless of course they come out with a RSX type R that I keep hearing rumors about
wink.gif
). We are going to have to wait a while, since we are in the process of refinancing our house. -Joe
 
The bottle states that the Honda 5w-20 is made by ExxonMobil. Last summer I got the Material Safety Data Bulletin on this stuff from a Honda dealer (Mobil told me they have a policy of not giving any information on oil they make for others). It gives the following data, among other items:

Flash Point 210 C (410 F)
Relative Density 0.86
Viscosity at 40 C (cSt): 45.0
Viscosity at 100 C (cSt): 8.2

Therefore, I am really surprised at the 9.8 cSt no. the analysis revealed.
What is the advantage/tradeoff in their having almost 300 ppm of moly vs. the M1 SS oils only having about 80-95 ppm of moly?
 
quote:
Originally posted by cdavidc1949:
Patman - I sent in a sample of virgin Pennzoil 5w/20 to Blackstone a couple of days ago will post results when they come back
Click to expand...
Excellent! It'll sure throw things in here for a loop if it comes back as a 30wt oil too!
smile.gif
 
quote:
Originally posted by LubeRube:
It gives the following data, among other items:

Viscosity at 100 C (cSt): 8.2

Therefore, I am really surprised at the 9.8 cSt no. the analysis revealed.
Click to expand...
Makes you wonder if Honda or Exxon is doing a bait and switch game with the EPA!

[ January 08, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Giles ]
 
"What is the advantage/tradeoff in their having almost 300 ppm of moly vs. the M1 SS oils only having about 80-95 ppm of moly?"

I addressed this earlier this year.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000041

Different formulations. A group III formulation would need more moly because it doesn't have any esters or PAO's to help decrease wear.

[ January 09, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
MolaKule,

Thanks. That earlier discussion seems to support the idea that the extra moly is needed to compensate for the thinner viscosity of the base oil, rather than the fact that it is a conventional or Group III base oil--and that is easy to understand.

But your answer here seems to imply to me that one or more of the following three propositions are true about Group IV or V basestocks (ignoring the additive package):
1. When new they lower friction more than a Group I-III basestock of the exact same viscosity.[Isn't that a fairly disputed idea?]
2. They have greater film strength than Group I-III oils of the exact same viscosity. [I realize this is related to no. 1, but isn't this also disputed by many?]
3. Their viscosity/lubication quality holds up longer in operation than a Group I-III with the exact same viscosity does--hence the need for moly to extend, through better barrier lubrication, the life of the lower group oils.[This seems to be the most easily defended of the three based on everything I've read.]

Based on your experience how do you come down on each of these three propositions?
 
quote:
Originally posted by pinoy99:
Is Honda 5w20 dino(thought there is no such thing on this grade), blend or synthetic?
Click to expand...
It increasingly appears that the 5W-20 oils are formulated with Group-II and Group-III base stocks, or, entirely Group-III base stocks. Group-III base stocks are dino - albeit severely hydroprocessed. Legally, they can be classed and sold as synthetics, too, because, according to Chevron, more than 80% of the molecules are isomerized into more desirable non-waxy and non-aromatic lube molecules during the heat and catalyst driven hydrogen saturation processing.

[ April 14, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
 
I just mailed off another VOA of this oil, from a new bottle, and to a different lab to see if the results come back similar. I should know in a week. -Joe
 
Here is a VOA of the Honda 5W20 oil. This sample is from a new bottle. The first set of numbers is the analysis performed by Holt/Cat, the second set is the results I just got back from ANA labs:

Titanium 0/0
Silver 0/0
Copper 0/0
Iron 0/1
Chromium 0/0
Lead 0
Aluminum 1/0
Nickel 0/0
Silicon 0/0
Tin 0/0
Boron Not Listed/130

Molybdenum 242/237
Sodium 0/0
Magnesium 13/25
Zinc 928/1251
Potassium 0/Not Listed
Phosphorus 808/1055
Calcium 2130/2472


Water negative/0
Fuel negative/0
Antifreeze negative/0
Soot 0/0
Oxidation 0 scale 0-199/Not Listed
Nitration 0 scale 0-199/Not Listed
Sulfur 0/Not Listed
TBN 9/6.3
Vis@100 C 9.8/7.65


There are a few differences in additives, TBN and visc. The first sample was from a bottle I purchased at the Acura dealer back in December of 2002. This last batch was from a bottle that I just purchased a couple of weeks ago. Either Honda/Mobil changed their formulation or we are once again seeing variations between labs. -Joe

[ May 22, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: joee12 ]
 
jayjr98,

Are you comparing 2002 oil to 2005 oil? I don't suspect that oil within a brand would stay the same for three years.
 
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