Opinions please: Redline vs Amsoil

[cfromc]

Please give me experience and/or knowledge based opinions on the best oil for my 2004 Harley Road King. The bike has about 7,000 miles and has been using synthetic since about 500 miles. It is heavily modified and runs a high-lift cam, 10.5 compression ratio, Hi-Perf pistons, heads, etc. It has a small oil cooler also. It does not have a lower fairing. It is ridden solo 95% of the time and sees a big variety of riding conditions from 5 mile short-trips to 25-100 mile day trips to my last trip which was to Sturgis (2500 miles round-trip). It sees ambient temps from 50 to 110 degrees. Occasionally its in stop-and-go traffic for extended periods of time and sometimes its on the highway at 80 mph for two hours, and everything in between.

I'm using the Amsoil 20W-50 Racing oil this year but am looking for some educated opinions regarding the "best" oil for this application. I plan on keeping the bike forever and I plan on changing the oil and filter once per year with between 2,000 and 6,000 miles on the oil. Getting Amsoil or Redline is no problem for me and the prices are comparable so I just want the best. I'm considering the Amsoil MCV Motorcycle oil, the Amsoil TRO racing oil (or a mix of the two) or the new Redline 20W-60 Harley specific oil. The engine currently makes some noise with the Amsoil racing oil but the noise is primarily due to the agressive camshaft and gear-drive.

I know many people will say 'any of them will do the job' but, with availability and price out of the equation, please give me your opinions as to which is the best. Also, I will likely be using the Amsoil Ea oil filters unless there is something better out there.

 

[todds21]

Since your already using good synthetics why not see what is working best with a UOA? I like Amsoil in my 01 Road King Classic. What are you running in the tranny?

 

[cfromc]

I plan on doing a UOA, probably every year starting this year. But with the varied accumulated mileage each year and the fact that most years I won't be doing long trips (Sturgis is probably a once every 5-10 year trip for me) I don't think I will be comparing apples-to-apples. Too many variables.

I am currently using MTL in the primary with good results and Redline 75W-90NS in the transmission with decent results. I will be leaving the MTL in for one more year and then will drain and refill with MTL again. I will be switching the trans fluid to RL Heavy Shockproof this fall. After the switch to Heavy I will likely leave the primary and trans fluids in for two-years at a time since the yearly changes I used to do in the past seem to be way overkill. When I drained the Redline 75W-90NS last year it looked brand new.

In my Sportster I've tried just about every brand of gear lube and found that 75W-90 Mobil 1 and Redline seem to be the best. I will be trying Redline MT-90 trans lubricant this fall.

 

[Mackelroy]

It sounds like your having good luck with the redline, and you have no potential slippage problems with the excessive Moly content.


so unless you have a specific reason , why change?

 

[cfromc]

I don't know if the MTL has an moly in it. I've been using it for over 3,000 miles and no problems yet. I will have to do some research since Redline's website seems to not say one way or the other. Perhaps I can find a VOA on it.

 

[Fatboymoe]

I have a highly modified 03 Fatboy and I am really happy with Redline. In the cooler months, I use 20-50. In the summer, I switch to 20-60. MTL in the primary and Shockproof Heavy in the transmission. The MTL and the Shockproof really made the bike shift better, along with a hydraulic primary chain adjuster.

As far as modifications, I have basically the same set up, except for mine has a 116 stroker kit and makes 120RWHP and 125 torque witha 45mm Mikuni.

My motor has never been a real noisy one, but I can tell the difference when I switch to 20-60. I think it's real important to keep oil temps in check, and I think that is where Redline shines. But I have to be honest. I have never used Amsoil, but I would venture to say it would work just as well. I just find Redline easy to get and at good prices.

 

[cfromc]

Found one: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000171
1 ppm moly in MTL so no problems with moly/clutches in a HD primary with it.

 

[cfromc]

Fat boy: That's a rockin' engine all right. I'm getting close to 110/110 out of a 95" and I think the cam is just a little too big for a "touring" model, but oh well. Its a Woods TW6HG .590 lift and is notoriously very noisy (which I found out AFTER I got it). I've heard people say that the Redline 20W-60HD quiets the valvetrain down. I mainly ride in 50-100 degree weather so I don't foresee me changing viscosities. Do you notice that your bike is harder to start or takes a long time to warm up with the 20W-60?

 

[Fatboymoe]

cfromc,
I don't see a big difference in warm-up time. I don't ride until my rocker boxes are almost too hot to the touch. I usually don't go whacko with the throttle for at least a few miles of easy riding.

110,110 out of a 95 is very impressive. I didn't use that big of cam. I really spent the time and money in the heads and crankshaft. My compression ratio was kept at 10-1 because of the lousy gas here in California. I first started out with a 42 Mikuni and I couldn't get enough airflow for 116inches. The 45 was perfect and required little tuning and jetting.

Is your FI?

 

[wizzells]

cfromc,
Good numbers out of that 95".

I dont see any reason to switch if you feel you've had good luck with the oil you're using. That being said, we sell a lot of Redline at our shop and well as at our speed shop. And no, you wont have problems with clutch slippage and MTL in the primary. I cant tell you how many hundreds of bikes we've put that stuff in and never had any problems with clutch slippage attributed to the fluid...and this goes for 124" S&S engines putting out 175hp at the rear wheel.

Fatboymoe,
How do you like that 45 on there? Is it really touchy to weather conditions? We've found the 44CV to be much more "weather friendly" here in metro Milwaukee due to the ever changing conditions. Too many finicky 45 mikunis it seems. However, if you're willing to tinker the 45 is a great carb for high perf engines.
By the way, the fluids you're running are the typical Redline ones for the Harley application.

 

[Fatboymoe]

wizzells,
I have had this set up for a couple of years and have no problems. When I first built the motor, I did run into a problem that was easily solved. After getting everything the way I wanted it, I was climbing a mountain pass at high speed for a couple of minutes and was pinging like crazy after few minutes. It never did this on the dyno.
It turned out that the vacuum petcock was not getting enough of a vacuum signal and was partially shutting of the fuel flow.

I put on a Pingle mechanical petcock and the problem was solved and the pinging has not happened again.

One thing I did do is start with a leaner jetting than what the Mikuni came with out of the box. I don't remember right off hand what it is now, but it was leaner. After several dyno runs,the A/F ratio was spot on and the numbers were good enough for me. I did lose some fuel mileage(mid 30's), but that the price of performance.

I don't suffer from any problems with driveability. I just keep that stroker wound up and NEVER get below 3000 RPM.

One thing that did make a big difference on the dyno was the exhaust system. I started with V&H staggered big shots and gained almost 12 HP switching to the D&D Fatcat with the louder baffle.

 

[cfromc]

If I had to do it over again I would probably go the bigger cubes/.570-.575 lift cam/10:1 compression route. With a 103-113" engine with a little milder cam/compression I'd probably get the same HP but more TQ and not have to deal with a noisy cam and compression releases. I researched forever trying to get just the right combo for TQ/HP but the cam it is a little bit close to the egde for such a big/heavy bike intended for touring duty (at least sometimes). Live and learn. If I get an Ultra I'm going the mild/big inch route and have something that's relatively quiet (internally) and easy to start.

Fat Boy: agree about the warm-up and taking it easy for a couple of miles.

Wizzells: I have a 42 Mik on my other bike and I have no weather related problems at all except that the idle does need to be adjusted going from ambients of 90+ to below 70 but that's really no big deal. When I put some more performance into that bike I'll be going to a 45 mik most likely. One thing about those Mikuni's is the instant break-neck throttle response. Great for racing but it does take getting used to, especially going around corners while opening the throttle.

Since I'm running RL in both my bike's transmissions and primaries I may just go with RL for the engines. I've used the 20W-50 in the past with good results (lower temp+noise) although I've never done a UOA. Unfortunately, when I do my first UOA this fall, I will need to replace the oil with something when I do it so I won't yet have the benefit of the UOA. I believe the owner's manual does state that a straight 60 weight can be use over certain temps (I think about 80). All of my riding is over 50 degrees and most is over 75 so I think a 20W-60 would be good. I bet it would have been ideal for sitting in traffic in Sturgis at 100 degrees in stop-and-go for 30 minutes.

 

[cfromc]

Fat Boy: Carbed 44 SE CV. May have Woods turn it into a "435" for me at some point but is very expensive to gain another 3-5HP. I think he charges about $570 to do it. When I had my bike dyno tuned the A/F was a nearly perfect flat line 12-13:1 from 3000 to 6500 at WOT, so the carb is dead on (above 3000 at least). I'm sure the motor would like some more airflow though but I really don't need any more HP, I'd just like a little more TQ. Its got enough HP to take it to speeds that no Road King has a right to be at, at least not for more than few seconds.

 

[carock]

Redline is a proven quantity for air cooled high performance motors. Other oils tend to be formulated more for long drain intervals. Redline is formulated for preventing high performance lubrication disasters, like too much heat, too much air, or loss of oil pressure.I would stay with their Harley specific oil. You may have noticed a few earlier threads where Specialty Formulation GL-5 gear oil got good reviews compared to Redline shockproof oil in the tranny.I bought some for my BMW, but I have not tried it yet.

 

[msparks]

Have you thought about the Amsoil straight SAE 60?

This would probably quiet down the noise. I don't know what the "multi-vis" viscosity would be but I guess between a 20 and 30 weight for "cold" temp fluidity. So I probably wouldn't run it in the winter but for 90-100 degree days this would give the best in protection for those radical cam's.

 

[cfromc]

Well...msparks, the straight 60 (from Amsoil's website) is 23.6@100 and 208.6@40 with CCS at 8305@-10C. Their MCV is 20.1@100, 152.9@40 and CCS of 5609@-15C. It appears the straight 60 is substantially thicker when cold. One thing that is frustrating my decision is that Redline has not yet posted the specs on the 20W-60 that I could find anywhere. The specs on their 20W-50 shows that it is a little thinner than the Amsoil MCV and a little thicker than the TRO. If I were to assume, which I don't want to do, I would imagine that the 20W-60 is on the thinner end of the 60 weights.

Also, carock, you've made a good point. I want the very best protection 'period'. With 3 kids, 1 full-time job and a couple PT jobs, a wife, friends, family and another bike, I just don't put more than 5,000 miles on this bike, even in a good (riding) year. The extended drain benefits of Amsoil are just not needed on this bike at this point in my life. I think I'm getting really close to a decision to use Redline 20W-60. I'd like to see a VOA/UOA or at least some specs from Redline though. Hopefully there will be some more info before this fall when I change my oil.

I haven't given up on Amsoil yet though. I plan on still using it for my 4-wheeled vehicles, lawnmower, weedwacker, etc.

 

[Mackelroy]

I think it's real important to keep oil temps in check, and I think that is where Redline shines. But I have to be honest. I have never used Amsoil,))))))))

Redline wont tolerate sustained heat it will dump moly all over the place , the unique thing about the Redline is it dissipates heat very quickly and that seems to avoid that issue.

Typically your average oil at most around 200 ppm moly, redline many cases has 6 or 700 hundred.

I ran redline for about 4 or 5 thousand miles in a wet clutch, then I started getting hint of slippage went back to non moly oil, problem solved. No wet clutch equals no potential issue though
.

 

[Fatboymoe]

Mackelroy,
Primary's are seperate on most big twin HD's. Moly is of NO concern as I use Redline MTL which has almost no moly. There goes the theory of "dumping Moly all over the place" in a HD Big Twin primary.

 

[Mackelroy]

FatBoy,

I made no mention of Harley or MTL specifically nor tested or seen the specs ( so I'll take your word for it) about the Moly, but on redline engine oils in general . It's not a theory on the moly dumping, I've fired up a few oils including redline and seen the result. Redline can get real ugly lookin.

What I did find interesting was the cooling rate of Redline though, it's very fast. I'm sure this aides avoiding the Black Plaque.>G<

 

[todds21]

How does the 20w60 work in cooler weather? I live in Texas and get to ride year round. I think the 60 wt would work real well 6 months of the year down here when its HOT. But I don't want to change my oil twice a year.

I am running Amsoil but don't benefit from the extended drains. If the 20w60 is gonna be ok to temps down to like 60 with maybe a little more warm up time I may give it a try too.