M/C Roller Crankshafts

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Falicon is correct. He has been building Suzuki Pro Stock and Road Race Crankshafts since the early 80's to include several of mine.Where others have failed in the various threads is to acknowledge the roller crank is a different animal compared to a plain bearing crank. Thats why the Suzuki GS 1100 and 1150 did not cut the mustard when used in Top Fuel Racing back in their day. They simply cannot take the shock,much like a synthetic in a rear differential is not a shock proof fluid, Synthetic also fails to give the ultimate protection in these type motors especially when shocked like drag starts,speed shifting ect. A owner of one of these is much better off using a something like Falicon,the owner of one of the Nations best M/C crankshaft shops has advised. He has been there,he knows. I do not think any roller bearing M/C 's are made anylonger except the 2 stroke GP 500's and 250's/125's which use "gear light" and expect relatively few even knows of this roller and shock problem with the Suzuki 4stroke engine.Many VW and Porche aftermarket roller cranks still around as well that should follow Jim's advise as well if offered.Probably advised by their own builders.I always used a straight 40 wt because of this and oil pressure at hot idle was still just 10 lbs. I won the 1984 Soul Brothers nationals and ran the WERA Endurance series for two years with Falicons cranks and this straight wt oil and during that time saw a few Bel Ray lubricated roller crankshaft motors go South

Hope this helps
 
I take it that you own one of those. Have you thought about slotting the cam sprockets and advancing the cams to reduce cylinder head temp around the exhaust valves and overall reducing your oil temperature?

If you but a blower on it,use a straight wt heavy grade racing oil
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I saw a old thread reposted with a KLR using 15-50 M1,alot of pointing to the gearbox which there lays some truth,if you increase the volumeric effeciecny of that EPA motor, it will "help" with "some" oil related woes if that was your motor in the post,will help if not your posted motor.Low end and midrange will benefit greatly as well along with throtle response which equates to lifting the front wheel much better

[ August 27, 2002, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
Dragboat:"much like a synthetic in a rear differential is not a shock proof fluid, Synthetic also fails to give the ultimate protection in these type motors especially when shocked like drag starts,speed shifting ect." I do not understand this statement in that the film strength of synthetic lubricants is much greater than that of mineral based oils; this is a given. Eaton, Fuller, Rockwell, Dana Spicer offer free, full warranties for rear ends to 770,000 miles vs. the normal 50,000 or 100,000 when using mineral based oil due to regular (note: note to include Schaeffer) GL-5 rated mineral based gear oil's decreased ability to handle 'shock loading'... A long wall coal mining planetary gearbox's life was quintupled after switching to a synthetic gear oil from a mineral based product due to the synthetic's ability to handle "shock loading".. EVERY turbine engine in the world is running some form of synthetic oil due to the synthetic oils superior film strength. Etc. Etc...
Obviously there is something I have missed regarding mineral base/synthetic film strengths and shock loading. Could you please share this information with me??
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[ August 27, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: GeorgeCLS ]
 
George,gear oil is out of context in this thread,turbines are not "shocked" either,they stay spinning.You are also speaking of posi trak units,not the manufactures of ring and pinions.Another topic post you had was about a limited slip unit,,try a ring and pinion company like US Gear ect,would be curious to knw what they recommended. But some syntheic gear oils are just plain better than others it seems,gear oil is a topic that is not of much interest to me

I do not believe you have been around to modern motors with upwards of 900lbs of open pressure the nose of a roller cam,,,ect ect. These thin multi wts are a great way to kill a 15k+ dollar motor imo with logetivity in mind.Not a 200 mile race and throw the parts away.
But while we are here,you might be able to tell me why two street strip motors running only 450 lbs of open pressure only allowed the roller lifters to live 2k miles on one engine,3k on the other with Trysyn 15-50? Also might be able to tell me why Trysyn seemed to shear and allowed two other BB Chevy's with Vasco jet springs and 800-900 lbs spring pressure,motors well over 10k each to get metal to metal contact and got the lifters sideways right quick and killed both motors? Yet,a straight 40 wt VR1 with a additive on the BB motors was added to all 4 engines after repair and the first two now have 7k and 9k repectively street miles on them.These grenade pins were pulled at others expense,not mine

I understand the credentials you have in your sig,I ask how much hands on Race Motor building experience you have?These guys such as Falicon are experts and pioneers in their field and I would presume to be far more knowledgable than most about oils even furthering with feedback from the field yet they are challenged?. Same goes for cam manufactures,show me one that recommends a multi wt anything for breakin if the cam,and to further,you will not find one that will warranty a cam broke in on Synthetic,,not one! The only way out is "if" the cam company knew the builder and a straight wt syn was used

Also,I had asked you a question in another thread,it went unanswered about the fact you said Wallace finished a race the other night on Mobil M1 30 wt,it seemed to allude to he uses a OTC Mobil oil,,I do not believe that would be the actual case in high end racing like that,I will pull the thread and post here since it must have been overlooked

(GeorgeCLS

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Member # 213

posted August 25, 2002 12:06 AM
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The 30W Mobil 1 should do just fine. Indeed the 40W will cut into horsepower and fuel economy. You just don't need that much viscostiy in this vehicle. Regarding running 80 mph, etc. Rusty Wallace came in 2nd tonight at Bristol running 30W Mobil 1 oil at a fairly significant speed... Mobil 1 30W will not shear down unless contaminated by fuel/AF/H2O, etc. It will remain in grade, just as Mr. Wallace's did tonight at Bristol.. M1 30W series oils just do not shear, are grade stable. I have seen vehicles go 40,000 miles on Mobil 1 and oil analysis results indicate the same viscosity as new oil. I have never seen M1 go out of grade except by some form of dilution or severe blow by causing oxidation. And this is for literally hundreds of oil analysis results for fleets of company cars, vans, tow vehicles, etc.
George
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Posts: 98 | From: Columbus, Ohio | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

dragboat
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posted August 25, 2002 06:06 AM
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George, I believe this is a Supersyn thread so with this in mind

{And this is for literally hundreds of oil analysis results for fleets of company cars, vans, tow vehicles, etc.
George }

Are you saying you have seen the
hundreds of Supersyn anaylisis results? Or Trysyn and prior? I believe the distinction needs made between the two oils as it may mislead some readers into thinking the two are the same or never changed

Also,I find it difficult to believe that the Wallace car uses a Walmart type formulated oil. Can you confirm that car uses a OTC oil in it please,interested in knowing.I am not accusing in anyway but this will be news to many if found to be true

[ August 25, 2002, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

[ August 27, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by dragboat:
I take it that you own one of those. Have you thought about slotting the cam sprockets and advancing the cams to reduce cylinder head temp around the exhaust valves and overall reducing your oil temperature?

I'm not aware of anyone playing with cam timing on these engines. I'd consider it but I don't want to be the first.
 
Quote:
"But I would disagree with the statement that the problem lies in the fact it is synthetic"

I agree my stament was a bit off in that it seemed to point only at a synthetic. Not much room in at least my racing world for a oil with a low Newtonain starting point. The motors should have heat in the rods and oil before the run,what ever it maybe.
Actually in the last post I was in the process of a edit to make it not look quite so harsh" I tend to speak my mind
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" when BOOM! First a tranformer outside went and then the lines were like 4 th of July. Was w/o power a while.

Anway Jason,I agree with you take on the oils.

Mineral based oil though has not entirely been eliminated in racing or hotrod street cars/motorcycles. I don't want this blown out of purportion but some cannot see the forest because of the trees. That said without anyone here in mind but when some of us racers need a additive to supplement a oil for a reason,everyone on the forumalated oil wagon goes haywire. When you run some of these parts out of their intended application,most oils are not up to the task.

Richard,
We have done this for years!You won't be the first at all. The Ninja 900's to the FJ 1200's all lowered oil temperature from this all positives,no negatives.The Suzuki GS1100 did not need the exhaust valves adjusted as often,seen those motors over 325 F on oil temp when stock.
The GSXR 750 and 1100 motors,easier on the exhaust cam,springs and reduced valve adjustments

Honda and Yamaha thumpers same deal except starting was sooooo much easier and they would actually lift the front wheel with the throttle only. A carb recalibration must be performed after moving the cam timing though,many aftermarket kits even for the diaphram type carbs" most common today" are available. The stock cams are healthy in most,just a EPA deal in how much they were/are retarded from the factory

[ August 27, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
Dragboat,

I have built and rebuilt engines for mostly oval and drag racing and work with builders/racers and I can tell you synthetics are used. But each oil has its place. I would not use a Mobil 1 OTC synth for drag racing. M1 OTC is for extended driving in passenger cars and light trucks, not for racing.

For racing, I would formulate a high ester synthetic Group V (more than Redline or NEO) with gobs of Moly, ZDDP, chlorine esters, and very little dispersant/detergent additives for a race, shock loads or not. I would also use a 20W50 or above, and even maybe a straight SAE 50 synthetic with loads of FM's. If your talking alcohol, I would use a SAE 60 or 70 with the same FM's and little else. Of course, this all depends on the racer's pocket book. If he couldn't afford a synth, one would take a good Group II+ virgin base and pour in all kinds of FM's and anitoxidants to reduce the film's coefficient of friction and increase the base oil's longevity.

The rule of thumb is the greater the loads, whether sustained or intermittent, the higher the viscosity in order to maintain film thickness.

I would also bet that you would not use your street Pennzoil in those HO engines either.

What is VR1? Is that a fully formulated race oil or an additive? I have not come across this stuff in my circles. Some racers may have used it, just never saw it or heard it discussed.
 
It is the OTC Valvoline Racing oil with 2000ppm of Zinc and of course all the other stuff that makes for the forumlation of a high rpm high load capability Raing oil. Been available for all the years I can remember

Let a motor set for months,tear it down and cam is still coated with oil. Available in many wt grades

I built and maintained a destroked 475 ci Drag Hydro that the Lenco two speed is shifted at 9250 rpm and goes through the traps at RPM above that. Nary a problem with this oil in this application for two years.
Great in motor cycles as well as you can feel the difference in shifting,cam life ect.Always had it around so used it in the truck for 210k hard miles.

I agree with you on using a exotic for a racing synthetic,,I just have not seen the need yet.Always another way to get a job done
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In years past all had a Racing oil,even Sinclair. I think Valvoline,Phillips and Pennzoil are they last of the major players making a Mineral based Race oil. Phillips also has a nice looking 15/40 blend racing oil . Have not used it though.
 
Dragboat, to answer the question on Rusty Wallace. They did use over the counter M1 until 2 seasons ago when they started cutting back on the AW for the converters. They still use a Mobil 1 0W-30 but it has a spike of AW. Other than that, same old same old....
George
 
Regarding looking at hundreds of tri-syns and super-syn analysis. Yes.. I monitor fleet analysis results. Sales vehicles, vans, delivery trucks, tow trucks. Some running 24 hours a day/7 days a week. I review several hundred analysis results a *day*, many of them synthetics.. A bunch! And yes, I have followed some of these fleets from original Mobil 1 formulation through tri-syn and supersyn... It is difficult to explain but I have this wonderful computer program that enables me to very quickly review analysis results, monitor trends, etc.. It is part of what I do each and every day..
Regarding "shock" or extreme loading and the lack thereof in turbine engines. Do you know what a turboprop turbine gearbox experiences when a pilot goes from 80% forward thrust at 140 mph in a landing to 80% reverse thrust? We are talking about literally thousands of horsepower going from foward to reverse and the gears, bearings taking that loading with cushioning provided by roughly a 10 weight pure synthetic oil... No EP, no AW, essentially no additization, only oil film.. I would characterize this as a loading no boat or race car can equal and the 10W synthetic oil does it again and again and again... For tens of thousands of hours.. No 50W Pennzoil could take this loading or abuse.
As Molakule has shared so well, yes, specialized synthetic lubricants are needed for those 'ultimate' racing applications in the form of 60W and 70W viscosities...
This was the birthplace of the Sypersyn molecule in fact..
George
 
OK, Now I know the oil of which your speaking.
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"I built and maintained a destroked 475 ci Drag Hydro that the Lenco two speed is shifted at 9250 rpm and goes through the traps at RPM above that. Nary a problem with this oil in this application for two years. Great in motor cycles as well as you can feel the difference in shifting,cam life ect. Always had it around so used it in the truck for 210k hard miles."

Can you send me one of those engines up here so I can put it in my '86 Burb? Seriously, sounds like a real cool engine.

I wonder though, have you ever tried say Amsoil or Redline 20W50 for comparison to the VR1? I am not saying the VR1 has no merit, but it would be interesting to dyno the same engine with the three oils and measure the temps and torque curves. I know some racers who will use synthetic just to get 5-10 HP more because it could mean the difference between a nose-to-nose situation and winning.
 
Dragboat, I have not built any race motors, but one other problem I would see using M1 is the lack of barrier adds. Even 15w50 is pretty chintzy, the new SS even more so(based on Terry's post here). And I agree with you M1 15w50 WILL shear. But I would disagree with the statement that the problem lies in the fact it is synthetic. I think it is the lack of barrier protection and the shearing. There are some syns that do not use VI even though they are multigrade. Red Line 10w30 and 20w50 for example. They are also heavy on the barrier adds like VR1, but they also contain moly so they should offer even more protection. Red Lines race oils are called straight weights, even though they test out and can be rated as multivis. Probably to avoid confusion and indicate there is no VI and no shearing.

And I do agree about OTC M1 being used in racing. I don't believe it for a second. For one, you better hope the motor has dry sump lubrication to completely eliminate starvation. And better chose a thick one to minimize use of barrier adds. I have heard of quite a few people that have spun bearings while road racing with Mobil-1....Back to the lack of barrier adds.
Now maybe Mobil-1 has reforulated and beefed up 15w50 SS like they did to the early 10w30 SS as well. I hope so.
 
Regards to clinging or oil adherence, any oil with polybutalene or esters will show clinging.

"Let a motor set for months,tear it down and cam is still coated with oil. Available in many wt grades." I would be concerned if any oil did not do that. Can you tell us what modern oils do not cling?
 
Yes as comapared to the VR1 the Mobil Drive Clean seems like WD 40 on our family cars cam lobes in which you can reach in the filler cap and put your finger on the cam
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Yep,already read the remarks when I spoke about that earlier in the year

I will catch flack for that remark but my finger felt what it felt or did not feel?. I had that oil in the motor for two hundred miles after draining the factory, and the have been with the Pennzoil 10/30 since in which after setting overnight,I can get actual visable oil in my finger now.

Any explanations on this welcomed,denouncement not welcome
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He He!

I don't think you would want that motor in you Suburban
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[ August 28, 2002, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
"I don't think you would want that motor in you Suburban."

Well, it would sure wake the cows up on Satrurday morning with the induction/exhaust system I have installed!
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I think another thing to consider is the barrier additives in the oil. After the engine oil additive has plated up your cam lobes for example, you would not really need a thick oil film, since at next start-up, your barrier additive would take care of lubrication until the oil stream/pressure arrived.
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The intake ports of that engine flow over 420cfm @ 28 inches of water,and has two reworked Bary Grant 1200 + cfm Dominator carbs on a tunnel ram,the hole in your hood would make for a problem when it rained,the 14.4 static compression with gas ported pistons would make for a healthy gas bill
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Seriously though you are correct and the Shaeffers 132 looks very nice,will try it in something soon.With a bit of silicone,and some 132 Sheaffers might do very well in a street performance or middle of the road bracket racer with the SS Mobil. I wish I could get my hands on some silicon for added anti foam to another oil oil I have in mind
While in topic of race oils,Phillips has a semi syn 15/40 that has"higher detergent and dispersant package than conventional petroleum based products and a more robust additive package offers improved performance"
pour pont -38 F,cST@100C 16.0.VI index 138CP of 3000,I forget the temp on that but have spent alot of money recently having oils looked at,looks like this one is a must see for dragboat
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They have a 20/50 race oil thats light on zinc compared to he VR1,too light,I wonder if it uses a moly? That one will have to wait for a look,maybe I can find out another way?
 
You only need 0.01% anti-foaming agent in an oil, and anti-foam is silicone-based. Silicones are generally poor lubricants for high-load applications. Too much silicone, and you loose that all important film strentgh and thickness.
 
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