Different versions of Edge 0w30 (normal v a5/b5)

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DD,
Another (imperfect) option for you, Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0W30 (PDF Link)

It's API SN and ACEA C2/C3 so it sits on the viscosity fence between C2 and C3 and therefore on the thicker side (KV100 = 11.9 cSt) but it carries a lot of high quality Euro OEMs like Porsche C30 and VW 504/507 so it's a very good oil. Probably at the low-SAPS end of the C2 spectrum.
 
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Originally Posted By: DangerousDan
Where would a mere mortal find the sacred writings of JLR? I am not finding it with Google...

Yes I'm not having much luck either. I can buy the JLR standard, but thats not going to happen.

I'm intrigued, but then again, it is a Jaguar and it's ment to give you trouble, one way or another.

So looking at some JLR.03.5007 oils it does appear to be equivalent to WSS-M2C950-A and is a full synthetic mid-SAPS ACEA C2 oil in 0W-30 viscosity, typical values from various spec sheets seem to be about:
KV100 = 9.5 to 10 cSt
KV40 = 50 to 55 cSt
TBN = 7.5 to 8
Sulphated Ash = 0.79%
zinc = 850 ppm
This would easily qualify as an API SN oil, and some of them carry that spec too.

Now according to this UK Jag web page (here) which is a scan of some Jag service document. It says for the 2.0 L Diesel
Quote:
SAE 0W-30 meeting Jaguar Land Rover specification STJLR.03.5007. If unavailable SAE 5W-30 meeting Jaguar Land Rover specification STJLR.03.5005, or meeting specification WSS-M2C934-B can be used.


Does that help ? Not really as Ford 934-B is a low-SAPS C1 oil, much like the one above, but with reduced SA% (~ 0.49%) and reduced TBN (~ 5). Good luck finding this stuff. If you do, I would reduce the OCI when using it.

The Jag forums seem to be full of people being shocked at the 20,000 mile OCI and can they trust it? Plus full of people being annoyed by the lack of availability of JLR oil and the expense of being forced to use the dealer. Must be a Jag thing.

Do the ladies think you have a good looking car or is it a great drive ? I'm looking for positives here.
I've always wanted a V12 Jag, but my mate who was a Jag mechanic talked me out of it, I didn't have enough money to keep it on the road. He suggest a luxury boat or race horse instead.
 
SR5:
thanks for the oil information. That is about what I have found, looking at the available oils that meet the JLR spec. Difficult to find in the US or Canada.

As for owning a Jag, the car (an XE with a 2.0 diesel) handles well, rides well, is quiet on the highway at speeds well above the limit in most of the US, gets about 41 MPG US in town, and out on the highway it goes way up to between 48 and 52 MPG US depending on the speed and weather. And I almost never drive slower than 75 MPH on the highways around here. It is getting better than 40 MPG US in town with snow tires.

If I turn the A/C on in the summer, it is a little lower, or if I am going into a howling wind it is lower. Also, it has cruised from Fargo to Billings MT (over 600 miles) in one evening. A function of the comfort, fuel mileage, and speed capability. I never made it close to that far with my Jetta diesel. In the Jetta I was tired out about 150 miles from Billings.

Also, since I live in a place where corrosives are dumped on the roads to melt ice, the chassis being made of aluminum is a big plus.

Most of our miles have been on long road trips, and it is nice to be able to go 500 miles without a worry or stopping for fuel. It has given us zero trouble in about 12,000 miles, which is to be expected. The engine consumed no oil at 10,000 miles.

I have heard that the build quality went up under Ford, and the design quality went up when Tata bought them from Ford. Go figure. I wouldn't touch a 1970 to 2012 Jaguar with a 20 foot pole. I might buy a Defender. I had a 66 Land Rover 109, and it was great off road, unreliable, and downright frightening at 60 MPH.

An older Jag or Land Rover is a classic and it costs whatever it costs, and the new ones seem to be very fine automobiles. Mine claims to be 50% UK and 50% German content. The build quality is excellent. Much better than the VW diesel it replaced.

The engine in the XE is not a Ford design or derivative. It is a fresh sheet design, so I suspect the Ford specs are just close. I have been in the UK a couple times in the past two years and expect to keep going every year. I may pick up 7 liters of the Castrol and an oil filter next trip, and put it in my checked luggage. I would just like to avoid paying the dealership $180 for an oil change.

At 20,000 miles I will do a UOA. That change is on JLR, so it will be done. Then I will do a UOA again at 30,000. If the numbers are good, we go on. If not, well... $180 is less than a new engine.
 
Quote:
I live in a place where corrosives are dumped on the roads to melt ice, the chassis being made of aluminum is a big plus.

Yes I see that as a big plus.

Quote:
Also, it has cruised from Fargo to Billings MT (over 600 miles) in one evening. A function of the comfort, fuel mileage, and speed capability.

OK, I feel better now. To be able to do 600 miles in quick comfort is a well balanced package.

A car like that is worth keeping. And if keeping it, you may be able to order a 20 L drum / pail from a Castrol distributor of the JLR spec oil. I know there are oil wholesalers around me who will sell me anything, as long as it's not in small tick-tack amounts. But 20L / 5 gallons is usually an OK amount for them, especially if you pick it up yourself.
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
Yes I'm not having much luck either. I can buy the JLR standard, but thats not going to happen.

All I could find, either, was the mention of the Ford spec, too.
 
Whilst the JLR 5007 and Ford 950A specs are similar (0W-30 ACEA C2 types) they are not the same, with both requiring specific testing in the OEM's own hardware above and beyond the ACEA requirements (largely around fuel economy).
 
Some of these specs seem a tad niche, especially for someone with North American oil selections.
wink.gif
 
DangerousDan,

SR5 asked me to comment on this thread...

In a former life, I used to formulate engine oils. I used to do this on a global scale for the well known majors plus a whole lot of other folks. Based on years of experience at the PCMO coal face, I'm going to give you some advice...

Do not under any circumstances ever run your engine oil out to a 20,000 mile OCI!

I am fully aware that there are people out there that will vehemently disagree with this statement (including Jaguar themselves) but I would strongly urge you to totally disregard their advice; regardless of how good they say their oil is. As often as not, the 20k OCI is primarily supported by engine tests conducted in the lab. Sadly, lab tests never tell you the whole truth about the real world or about the CUMULATIVE effects of repeated extended oil drains on your engine. You will be far better served by changing your oil twice at 10k mile intervals, even if this costs you more.

That said, it seems you're having a few problems finding the specified oil. First off, I would urge you not to take oils on a plane as checked in luggage. There were plenty of times in the past, when I was flitting between the UK & the US, when it would have been very convenient to do exactly that but I always resisted the temptation. If you get pulled over, it doesn't matter that YOU know it's engine oil. The Customs folks won't. It really isn't worth the aggro!

I don't know for sure but my gut feel would be that you can safely substitute a JLR 5007 oil with one that meets Ford WSS-M2C950-A. Until your Ingenium 4-cylinder turbo diesel came along, all Jag engines were Ford sourced. Brother Weasely has said the specs are not exactly the same and that the Jag spec requires some specific OEM testing. I can believe that. However that the specs are marginally different probably make no material difference to the oil which passes BOTH the Ford and the Jag specs. The extra Jag testing will almost certainly be 'assurance' testing rather than anything that requires a major reformulation of the oil.

Just one final comment on Ash levels. It seems Jag are speccing a mid-ash C2 oil for your diesel. Good! Very low ash oils are best avoided. However I just want to point out that Low SAPs oils are not NO SAPs oil. Experience in Europe seems to be that a majority of DPFs eventually plug with ash regardless of what oil you use. Hard numbers are difficult to come by but typically you might expect to get 80k miles out of a DPF before it needs replacing or chemical cleaning.

Lastly, can I thank you for buying British! Your engine will have been made in Wolverhampton which is my home town. Wolverhampton and the surrounding area was the cradle of The Industrial Revolution & was once known as The Workshop Of The World. It's nice to see the place regaining some of its former glory!
 
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe


Lastly, can I thank you for buying British! Your engine will have been made in Wolverhampton which is my home town. Wolverhampton and the surrounding area was the cradle of The Industrial Revolution & was once known as The Workshop Of The World. It's nice to see the place regaining some of its former glory!



Or Ford's Bridgend engine plant, Bridgend being where I'm from!
grin.gif


My Father regularly runs 20k OCI on his 2012 320d running a 5w30 LL04 oil. Turbo is starting to hum a bit as it builds boost but the engine seems sweet as a nut. I'd love to stick a HDEO in there for a few short OCI's and see what [censored] it drags out. I'm sure it's sludged up to the max!

Something I don't agree with is the 'sealed for life' gearbox. BMW say it's 'sealed for life' but ZF say 80kms/50k miles. I drove the car a lot when it was brand new as it was my Fathers company car and we both worked for the same company. When he left that company he bought the car and I wasn't insured on it. I drove it last week after about 2 years and 60k and the gearbox is very sloppy. It used to be like driving an electric car, you'd never feel a gear change. Now at 120k you feel every jerk as the box shifts a cog.
 
Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
Something I don't agree with is the 'sealed for life' gearbox.


Keep the oil in there, and it's (of course) "sealed for life".
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
BTW Vase-Shagger, good screen name, this site has it's potty mouth filter set to high-filter. But Aussie and English slang slip straight through.


Lol. I was thinking exactly the same thing!
 
SonofJoe:
thanks for the information. I am not sure what I think of the 20K OCI, but I know I will only do it if a 10K UOA, and probably a 15K UOA, say it is acceptable.

I am currently employed writing engine controller software by a manufacturer of EPA regulated equipment, and I know what our engine life tests are like. Some of the tests involve running it beyond the expected life of the engine. There will also be extreme operating environments thrown in for good measure.

We are probably a bit more rigorous than most automobile manufacturers, since our customers rely on our products to earn their living. But our oil specifications are generally available world wide. Unfortunately, the Jaguar spec oil seems to be a dealer only item here in North America.

I don't know if Jaguar / Land Rover is as demanding. I do expect to have to replace the DPF at least once before I am told I am too old to be driving.


As far as buying a British vehicle, this is my third, or maybe fourth depending on how you classify a car. I still have my Whitworth spanners and sockets.

There is something different and wonderful about a British automobile. The Lucas Electric parts of the past are just a distant memory. The oil line on my Norton that melted in a Southern California traffic jam can be blamed on LA and not on the Norton.

I have driven my son in law's BMW 3 series, and I am not sorry I bought a Jaguar. I am not willing to trade my car's road manners for his car's supposedly classy interior.
 
Originally Posted By: DangerousDan
SonofJoe:
thanks for the information. I am not sure what I think of the 20K OCI, but I know I will only do it if a 10K UOA, and probably a 15K UOA, say it is acceptable.

I am currently employed writing engine controller software by a manufacturer of EPA regulated equipment, and I know what our engine life tests are like. Some of the tests involve running it beyond the expected life of the engine. There will also be extreme operating environments thrown in for good measure.

We are probably a bit more rigorous than most automobile manufacturers, since our customers rely on our products to earn their living. But our oil specifications are generally available world wide. Unfortunately, the Jaguar spec oil seems to be a dealer only item here in North America.

I don't know if Jaguar / Land Rover is as demanding. I do expect to have to replace the DPF at least once before I am told I am too old to be driving.


As far as buying a British vehicle, this is my third, or maybe fourth depending on how you classify a car. I still have my Whitworth spanners and sockets.

There is something different and wonderful about a British automobile. The Lucas Electric parts of the past are just a distant memory. The oil line on my Norton that melted in a Southern California traffic jam can be blamed on LA and not on the Norton.

I have driven my son in law's BMW 3 series, and I am not sorry I bought a Jaguar. I am not willing to trade my car's road manners for his car's supposedly classy interior.


About 6 years ago I was test driving all sorts of cars and by far the most fun and driveable was the Jaguar XF.

I didn't quite fit my needs at the time though. I've had my eye on a few Jaguars since then but haven't pulled the trigger as it's more a nice to have than a need to have.
 
DangerousDan,

A couple more things you might want to ponder on...

There's a recent BITOG thread regarding Mobil Annual Protection for 20k mile oil drains. Here's the link...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4615658/Inside_Mobil1's_Testing_&_#Post4615658

Mobil AP targets gasoline engines in the US (ie not diesels) but it's still worth watching the video on page 1. In the video, you will fleetingly see some shots of pistons (check out 3:57, 15:29 & 16:16). These pistons are not pretty. If this was your Jag, would you deem these pistons 'acceptable'? I'm not sure I would! Also, call me a cynic if you like, but in the side-on piston shot at 16:16, the top ring and scraper ring have been removed from the piston but the oil control ring has been left in place. Why is that? Is it because the OCR is coked-up and struck fast in in its groove? I suspect it is.

Now when you change your oil, you in effect press the reset button for your lubricant. Viscosity, additive levels, etc all go back to exactly where they should be. However the one thing that DOESN'T reset is engine cleanliness. You only start an OCI with perfectly clean pistons & rings once in the life time of an engine; ie when it's brand new. Your second OCI starts with pistons that have accumulated deposits during the first OCI. Your third OCI will start with pistons accumulated during the first OCI PLUS anything that lays down in the second OCI & so on.

Now here here's question for you... When you put an engine through a 20k mile OCI, do you lay down more piston deposits in the first 10k (when the oil is relatively fresh and the additives are most active) or during the second 10k? (ie when the oil is heavily soot laden, when the oil's TBN will be depleted, when the VII is chewed up & when you've eaten into the bulk of the oil's performance reserve?). I can't say I ever did this exact experiment but I would bet my last penny that disproportionately more deposits are laid in the second 10k of a 20k oil drain. And that fact is especially significant for diesel engines as diesels pistons tend to be more deposit-prone than gasoline engine pistons (which is why HDDOs always contain so much more Ashless than PMCOs).

And one final thing...I've actually heard of Billings before because of the Exxon refinery there but I had to look up where it was on Google Maps. Montana apparently is one of the 'bits at the top' close to the Canadian border. I'm assuming it's quite a bit colder than normal there right now. That being so, right now, you'll rapidly be accumulating partially burnt diesel in your engine oil. Diesel isn't quite as low viscosity as gasoline and doesn't thin your oil as much. However, diesel is far more persistent in engine oil (on account of it's lower volatility) and it will take far more miles of completely warmed up driving to purge it from the oil. Now I'll bet my other last penny that not one single mile of the Mobil AP's 120k trials factored in fuel in engine oil. Likewise, I'd bet that none of the Jaguar internal engine 'assurance' testing, that forms the basis for 20k OCIs, takes into account the impact of extreme fuel dilution.

Obviously you will decide what happens to your Jag but I just wanted to say that there are sound reasons why I am resistant to 20k mile oil drains.
 
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SonofJoe:
I suspect we are a lot closer than you think. I took the car in for the 10K dealer checkup, and when they told me that it did not include an oil change, I ponied up the $180 to change the oil. Whatever oil the car had consumed had been replaced with engine blow by. I might note that when the oil was changed the car had been driven over 1,200 miles of open highway in the previous week.

Even if I had done it myself, the JLR spec Castrol is quite expensive; I find it to be about $15 per liter plus shipping to the US, so just the 6 liters of oil runs over $100!

I am not going to run a 20K interval without some evidence that the oil is still capable of keeping the engine in good condition.

My Jag tends to be driven some in town, mostly 5-10 mile trips. Then it will go on long road trip. Almost never will it be driven less than 2 miles. That is why bicycles were invented. It is driven in some very cold temperatures. It was -30F at my house recently. I still bicycle to work, and my wife walks.

JLR will be paying for the next oil change with 10K miles on the oil, so that will be done. My plan is to do a UOA to determine the suitability of the oil for continued use and to get a used oil baseline for my engine.

Then, at 30K miles on the car, I will do another UOA to determine what I do. Are you suggesting that the oil should be discarded regardless of the results of that analysis? If not, other than the wear metals, viscosity, and TBN, what should I be looking at? Should I also run a VOA to see what this variant of Castrol Edge 0w-30 looks like?

The MSDS describes it as:

Synthetic base stock. Proprietary performance additives.

Base oil - highly refined Varies - ≥25 - ≤50

Pentadecane, 7-methylene-, mixed with 1-tetradecene, dimers and trimers, hydrogenated ≥25 - ≤50

Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic ≤3
 
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