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#4596774 - 12/07/17 05:34 AM Hydrogen future
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 37350
Loc: 'Stralia
http://www.hydrogenambassadors.com/images/the-hydrogen-society-more-than-just-a-vision.pdf

Just throwing it out there, as many of you know, having built an electrolytic hydrogen plant in the early 1990s, I'm not a fan of H2 as a storage medium.

Paper shows some technologies and some alternatives.

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#4596787 - 12/07/17 06:32 AM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 6594
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Thanks for the link. So far, it seems to be agenda driven. I especially enjoyed the "population without electricity" section. Questioning whether people are better off without it and hanging out in the fields with the cows....

My take is that conservation of power is necessary, but restriction is not. We can produce all the power we need, without difficulty.

Hydrogen may be a viable form of transportation power. Especially via a PEM (proton exchange membrane fuel cell) in electric cars. Unfortunately, the cost,,,,

He's a bit off with the aviation/hydrogen connection. Incorrectly using a 4 day glider, powered by hydrogen as an example. Today's jet aircraft require HEAT to achieve the performance we desire. We cannot perform the same task with electric motor driven props or fans. We must also include vast quantities of heat to provide sufficient discharge velocity for high speed travel. The faster we want to go, the more heat required.



Edited by Cujet (12/07/17 06:44 AM)
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#4596882 - 12/07/17 08:39 AM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 1856
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
I was always intrigued by Honda’s efforts in hydrogen with their home station. By providing the power to run the home plus produce hydrogen for the car. But it seems to be not discussed as much anymore. Did it not pan out?


http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/HydrogenStation/HomeEnergyStationIV/index.html
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#4596913 - 12/07/17 08:58 AM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: PimTac]
JohnnyJohnson Offline


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 1327
Loc: Wet side WA
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I was always intrigued by Honda’s efforts in hydrogen with their home station. By providing the power to run the home plus produce hydrogen for the car. But it seems to be not discussed as much anymore. Did it not pan out?


http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/HydrogenStation/HomeEnergyStationIV/index.html


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#4597016 - 12/07/17 10:30 AM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow]
JTK Offline


Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 10127
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Well I hope there's a future in it. I've got another 12-15yrs before retirement is in sight. LOL! I work at a plant that processes H2 gas into cryogenic liquid H2. The plant has been in operation since the early 1980s and our product is typically sold out before we can make it. We purchase our crude H2 feedstock from nearby bleach and chlorine producing plants. The rest we extract from natural gas through steam-methane reformation. All these processes have been around for eons.

Mass quantities of liquid nitrogen are used as refrigeration. The LN2 that boils off is recycled back to the air sep plants (that we also have onsite) to go'round the loop again.

I think in very rough numbers we consume about 15 mega watts to make about 20 tons/day of liquid H2. This doesn't include the costs associated with the liquid N2. Nearly all the power usage is from the trains of compression equipment used to compress the gas at various stages of the process.

We're on basically 100% hydroelectric power and get it at a very low rate. It's the only reason the plant is where it is. We recycle all our lube oils and are pretty near a zero landfill company.


Edited by JTK (12/07/17 10:31 AM)
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#4597022 - 12/07/17 10:34 AM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow]
andyd Online   content


Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 6280
Loc: Marshfield , MA
lotta process for 4KW
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#4597043 - 12/07/17 11:15 AM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: JTK]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 8510
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: JTK
I think in very rough numbers we consume about 15 mega watts to make about 20 tons/day of liquid H2. This doesn't include the costs associated with the liquid N2. Nearly all the power usage is from the trains of compression equipment used to compress the gas at various stages of the process.

We're on basically 100% hydroelectric power and get it at a very low rate. It's the only reason the plant is where it is. We recycle all our lube oils and are pretty near a zero landfill company.

Yeah, the unfavorable thermodynamics for hydrogen liquefaction are probably only exceeded by helium. It takes a tremendous amount of energy. Nitrogen is a whole lot easier.
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#4597079 - 12/07/17 11:50 AM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: kschachn]
JTK Offline


Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 10127
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn

Yeah, the unfavorable thermodynamics for hydrogen liquefaction are probably only exceeded by helium. It takes a tremendous amount of energy. Nitrogen is a whole lot easier.


Indeed. Any time we need to go into the process that runs at or near LH2 temps for maintenance or repairs, we have to use He for a thaw/purge gas. It's the only gas that wont freeze solid at those temps and plug everything up. He is crazy expensive. We've been through 100's of thousands of dollars worth of it over the years.
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#4597169 - 12/07/17 01:50 PM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow]
PandaBear Offline


Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 13829
Loc: Silicon Valley
I don't see how hydrogen will be more convenient or cost effective than running electrical wires around population, and I don't see how converting energy source into hydrogen and then using the hydrogen is better than other means, like pumping water up stream or chemical battery, or time of day electricity rate to encourage drying clothes, making ice, and charging EV at night.

The only reason I think Japan wants hydrogen is to introduce a demand for nuclear power plants or use nuclear power to crack hydrogen from water.
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#4597234 - 12/07/17 03:06 PM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: PandaBear]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 40610
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I don't see how hydrogen will be more convenient or cost effective than running electrical wires around population, and I don't see how converting energy source into hydrogen and then using the hydrogen is better than other means, like pumping water up stream or chemical battery, or time of day electricity rate to encourage drying clothes, making ice, and charging EV at night.

The only reason I think Japan wants hydrogen is to introduce a demand for nuclear power plants or use nuclear power to crack hydrogen from water.


Fuel cells are not governed by Carnot.

If fuel cells can be part of a hybrid/bottoming cycle approach with IC, the net efficiencies get much higher.

If you can produce hydrogen from a liquid medium or hydrocarbon gas infrastructure (reformation), you can get generating efficiencies, low-load efficiencies, etc.

Like everything in engineering, there are trades. Storing H2 is difficult. Transporing it isnt much better. Doesnt mean other approaches wont help. People will get nowhere without trying.

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#4597255 - 12/07/17 03:31 PM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: JHZR2]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 6594
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Fuel cells are not governed by Carnot.



I always thought that real world Hydrogen PEM fuel cells are 50% efficient. But maybe they are better now. It's not the magic bullet some would have us believe.
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#4597264 - 12/07/17 03:43 PM Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Cujet]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 40610
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Fuel cells are not governed by Carnot.



I always thought that real world Hydrogen PEM fuel cells are 50% efficient. But maybe they are better now. It's not the magic bullet some would have us believe.


That's fair. Thus my mention of combined cycle and bottoming cycles. Dont forget to consider SOFC and MCFCs though...

The best diesels and GTs are where? 40-ish % at optimal load, with a falling off depending upon design? Move to something small/local/sub MW-scale, and those efficiencies drop pretty fast, while if parasitics are managed, the efficiencies are doable at small scale for fuel cells (and sometimes easier due to ease of insulation).

Im a believer in combined FC-GT or FC-diesel where the IC waste heat drives reformation. In smaller scales, I still am a believer in FCs for scalable combined heat and power if fed by hydrocarbons.

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