Dowsing Rods?

[otis24]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: otis24
I have held a forked willow branch in my own hands and felt the branch pull downward very firmly. There is something to it, I don't know what.

Yes, there absolutely is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_phenomenon

You think there's water, you think that water should make your body respond in a certain way, and your body responds.

In other words, you have:

1. A human brain;
2. A human body;
3. Knowledge and experience that give you an intuitive sense of where water might be, AND/OR the blind luck to only be trying it where there's water everywhere; and
4. A belief that dowsing works.

It might not be a talent for dowsing per se, but yes, it's very real.


So you are saying my mind caused the stick to react in a physical manner (pulling downward)? So telepathy is real? My mind did not cause the stick to pull downwards. If a mind can move sticks, it can move other objects as well.

 

[Bandito440]

Your mind isn’t moving the stick, it’s moving your arms. It’s described clearly in the Wikipedia article that’s linked, and shown in the James Randi video that I posted earlier.

We don’t need more time to explain dowsing, because it’s never once worked under controlled circumstances. Bees can be observed flying under controls. Dowsing can’t.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: otis24

Perhaps in a generation or two our understanding of dowsing will have come a long way. Perhaps the science does not exist now to explain how it works just as the math did not exist to explain the flight of the bumble bee in the 1930's.

Science seeks to explain what does or does not occur. No need to use the science to explain why it doesn't work.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: otis24
Perhaps in a generation or two our understanding of dowsing will have come a long way. Perhaps the science does not exist now to explain how it works just as the math did not exist to explain the flight of the bumble bee in the 1930's.

The science/math doesn't have to explain why dowsing works. It has to demonstrate that it can work. That hasn't happened yet.

There's no point in trying to figure out how dowsing works when it's never been shown to work in the first place.

 

[AZjeff]

OK, science says it doesn't work and people have gone to great lengths to prove it's all [censored]. I get that. Here's what I don't understand. A couple of months ago I had to dig up my sewage pipe between the house and septic tank. 8 years ago we had the tank pumped so I knew about where the clean-out hole was but never uncovered or knew where the pipe came in. Anyhow, I got my wires out and walked along the side of the house, they crossed, meaning they went from pointing straight away from me to turning 90 degrees toward the other hand. I scuffed a little mark in the gravel then walked past, turned around and walked back and they turned again at the same spot. When I walk with these wires I'm looking at the wires not at the ground so I can't see the mark. There are no windows on the side of the house, no way to tell where you are in relation to what's inside. I had no way to know where that pipe came out. When I dug down I was directly over the sewage pipe. Not 1 foot or 6 inches ahead or behind, right over it. When we had the tank pumped 8 years ago I drew a little map to the access hole but had no idea where the map was. I have no reason to lie about what happened and am not trying to change anyone's mind or prove anything, but it seems to defy odds that I'd manage to somehow subconsciously make the wires turn exactly above the pipe should be and/or it was just a random movement of my hands that was exactly at the right place. I don't know the construction of a septic tank or where the pipe could logically be. So why does it happen? I'm not really interested in trying to prove to myself that it's all [censored] and don't even know what a double blind study is. There's no weird feeling and it doesn't seem like anything special or super-natural as people put it. Just trying to honestly tell my experience.

I never realized people have such strong negative feelings about it and will likely just keep it to myself after this.

 

[Garak]

One result is just that. My dad believed strongly, too, and that didn't make it the case.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
OK, science says it doesn't work and people have gone to great lengths to prove it's all [censored]. I get that. Here's what I don't understand. A couple of months ago I had to dig up my sewage pipe between the house and septic tank. 8 years ago we had the tank pumped so I knew about where the clean-out hole was but never uncovered or knew where the pipe came in. Anyhow, I got my wires out and walked along the side of the house, they crossed, meaning they went from pointing straight away from me to turning 90 degrees toward the other hand. I scuffed a little mark in the gravel then walked past, turned around and walked back and they turned again at the same spot. When I walk with these wires I'm looking at the wires not at the ground so I can't see the mark. There are no windows on the side of the house, no way to tell where you are in relation to what's inside. I had no way to know where that pipe came out. When I dug down I was directly over the sewage pipe. Not 1 foot or 6 inches ahead or behind, right over it. When we had the tank pumped 8 years ago I drew a little map to the access hole but had no idea where the map was. I have no reason to lie about what happened and am not trying to change anyone's mind or prove anything, but it seems to defy odds that I'd manage to somehow subconsciously make the wires turn exactly above the pipe should be and/or it was just a random movement of my hands that was exactly at the right place. I don't know the construction of a septic tank or where the pipe could logically be. So why does it happen? I'm not really interested in trying to prove to myself that it's all [censored] and don't even know what a double blind study is. There's no weird feeling and it doesn't seem like anything special or super-natural as people put it. Just trying to honestly tell my experience.

I never realized people have such strong negative feelings about it and will likely just keep it to myself after this.



The hallmarks of science is repeatable, reproducible results. Internal combustion is a known process, works all the time. So when you turn the key, as long as there's spark, fuel and a few other things, that process works and your car runs. You don't say internal combustion isn't working today.

Now lets look at Dowsing. What's the success rate? What rate do you need to say it's real? Wouldn't it be 100%? Why doesn't it work all the time? Try this experiment, drive 5 miles from your home and try to find the sewer line on the street. Mark your GPS position and then go check the city maps to see where the sewer lines are. Now repeat this 20-100 times. What's your success rate? Now try it with a couple hundred people. Half of them will claim to have the ability. The other half don't. Compare their success rates. I'm sure others here might be able to come up with a better experiment, but that's basically the jist of what you have to do to show it's real. Otherwise it's just like the butt dyno.

 

[AZjeff]

I would agree with that. I first tried it probably 30 years ago but since I didn't keep detailed records that can be analyzed and ridiculed it doesn't matter. I don't have to "believe in it" since I can do it. Don't know why and no idea how it works. No big deal and it's no different to me than using a stud finder. The stud finder doesn't work for me 100% of the time.

This has been an interesting thread, thanks to the OP for bringing it up.

 

[Garak]

And that's fair enough. I say it's harmless. It certainly isn't putting any petroleum engineers out of jobs or causing any geology departments to close.

 

[old1]

I totally agree with AZjeff. I know it works for me, and for everybody else I have told about it, but maybe we are all strange. Also, I don't consider it "dowsing" as I can't find water, just pipes, with or without water in them. And maybe it won't work 100% of the time, but as he said, neither does a stud finder! I think there is a logical scientific reason for it, I just don't know what it is. Maybe it has something to do with the electricity in a persons body. My dad couldn't wear a wind up watch, as they would stop in just a few minutes when on his wrist. Would run perfectly on the dresser. Figured out that if he put tape on the back of the watch so it was insulated from his body it would keep running.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: old1
I totally agree with AZjeff. I know it works for me, and for everybody else I have told about it, but maybe we are all strange.


See, that's the part I don't really get. I could say that I'm always good at roulette, I hit red 47.4% of the time. That means I'm an expert and that I'm really good at it. But that's the odds of hitting red, anyone can do it, there's no special skill or ability. If I could do it 100% of the time, then it'd be a different story. Understand the problem that your claims have?

 

[RTexasF]

Quote:
I "know" its bunk and "have" witnessed it (being unsuccessful)[as a well driller's helper]. So don't generalize.


Believe what you will. I have witnessed it done successfully multiple times and without failure. Had I never seen it work I would also think it bunk.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: RTexasF
Quote:
I "know" its bunk and "have" witnessed it (being unsuccessful)[as a well driller's helper]. So don't generalize.


Believe what you will. I have witnessed it done successfully multiple times and without failure. Had I never seen it work I would also think it bunk.


I've seen multiple people hit red at the roulette table all the time too. But for some reason, I don't think they're experts at picking them all the time or that they have some certain skill or ability.

 

[old1]

What I don't get is what the odds of hitting red (or any other color or number) on a roulette table has to do with finding a buried pipe which I can do 100% of the time. Actually I think you can do it also if you tried, since everybody I showed how can do it.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: old1
What I don't get is what the odds of hitting red (or any other color or number) on a roulette table has to do with finding a buried pipe which I can do 100% of the time. Actually I think you can do it also if you tried, since everybody I showed how can do it.


Those odds are known. How do you know that the entire area isn't covered with pipes so that where ever you dig, there's always water? Plus with pipes, you can always make an educated guess without using any dowsing rods. They mainly go from the street and if you know where the main water pipe enters the house, it's probably a straight line. And also in general a useless skill/ability if you're just applying it to pipes, usually those are on maps in city hall or you call dig safe. No professional company that does any kind of pipe repair would use dowsing rods to find them.

That's why I mentioned the desert and controlled studies.

 

[Dallas69]

If you saw it for yourself would you still say it's bunk?

 

[d00df00d]

Pick a publicly traded stock, and find yourself an audience of about 1000 people. Tell half of them the stock will go up. Tell the other half it'll go down.

Half of them will think you were right. Tell half of them the stock will go up, and tell the other half that it'll go down. Get rid of the rest.

Repeat this a few times, and you'll have eliminated almost everyone. But the few who remain will be absolutely convinced that you know exactly how a stock will go.

In any large population of people, there are always going to be a few people who get lucky many times in a row. If you ARE one of those people, you can't be blamed for thinking it's more than just luck. Just know that when you project your opinions outward, it's going to take more than just your case to establish a trend.

 

[Smokescreen]

I worked for public works one summer a few years ago. I live in a town that is over 100 years old and the plans were very sketchy. I was given a couple of thicker wires bent at 90deg shown how to hold them and told to go walk around the yard until they crossed and mark the spot to find water lines as they were somewhere in the 25 yard area and we didn't want to hit them. I had never heard of the practice and was extremely skeptical. I wanted it to not work.

The wires crossed. I though it was a fluke so I went and tried a different spot a few feet away and it did it again. I marked the spots and went back to the foreman and told him somewhat sarcastically that I marked two spots. He went and replicated the process. We dug down by hand and the pipes were there under my marks.

I don't know how or why, but if I ever need to locate water and don't have plans or very good ones, I would try it again.

 

[Bandito440]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
If you saw it for yourself would you still say it's bunk?

Not if I saw it in a controlled environment. Then, we could study why it happens.

We can’t though, because nobody’s ever been able to repeat it with controls. James Randi’s challenge was valid for 51 years, with $1M of prize money being offered at its peak. Nobody was able to exhibit their supernatural skills in that time period.

If you can repeat the process double-blinded, call your local university with your miraculous ability. If it just “works for you”, then you’ve got some further testing to do in order to go from anecdote to evidence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge

 

[AZjeff]

More anecdotal blather: Spoke with my brother-in-law back in Pa. yesterday. He's worked for a small town water company for almost 40 years. I asked him if anyone he works with ever tried to locate pipes with wires or other things. He laughed and said he does it all the time. A couple of the guys in the department can do it too, a couple of others can't. He told me about using them earlier this week. They've bought up a couple of small private water companies the past few years and have to go out and find/fix leaks where they don't have maps or previous experience. They were trying to follow a plastic pipe that had no tracer wire for the real locator to work so he got his wires out and followed it until it crossed into an area that had been strip-mined so it was all unconsolidated fill and he lost it, no movement. Had the backhoe operator start digging back between a couple of his marks and there was the pipe, followed it to where he lost it and found the pipe took a hard turn at the edge of the fill area that he just didn't try very hard to find. He said hat one time he was curious about how it works and found some info (speculation) that a ditch full of backfilled dirt has a slightly different magnetic field or whatever and that's what people are able to sense for whatever reason. Why not?

I could understand the idea that he'd have a reasonable intuition where pipes are in a small town he's worked in forever, but he can find pipes where he has no previous knowledge. Over his career he's used his wires hundreds of times to locate pipes and when I asked what he thought his success rate was he just said almost all. What's interesting is he doesn't get the wires out unless the real locator can't find the pipe. There must be a whole lot of people out there who don't know that what they're doing is impossible/bogus/hocus-pocus and they could be millionaires if they'd do it in front of the right people. I find this really interesting because it's scientifically unverified but it seems like people all over do it with good success.