Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
What's the Skinny on Modern FRAM Filters?
- Thread starter Chevrolet
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
Good point. I wonder how modern engines would fare with no oil filters. I suspect tighter tolerances than in the air-cooled VW engines might be a factor.
Claud.
Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
Good point. I wonder how modern engines would fare with no oil filters. I suspect tighter tolerances than in the air-cooled VW engines might be a factor.
Claud.
No for sure filters are required in modern engines but I would argue that if you were able to run it without a filter even for one full OCI I don't think it would blow up the engine. Would wear increase? Sure, but would it be catastrophic? I don't think so.
If it were the case then filters that came apart in the can at the pleats that are glued together would cause major engine damage and we just aren't seeing that. There is quite copious amounts of oil being pushed through the filter all the time too.
Long term though there would be a difference in longevity of the engine.
If it were the case then filters that came apart in the can at the pleats that are glued together would cause major engine damage and we just aren't seeing that. There is quite copious amounts of oil being pushed through the filter all the time too.
Long term though there would be a difference in longevity of the engine.
Last edited:
Fram is just as good as anything else.
Manufacturing changes. What is a good brand today might not be tomorrow if they cheapen materials. 3 years ago Purolator was the go-to cheap filter. Not anymore with all the tearing of media. Lots of videos online about Fram and their "cardboard" end caps. Well the end caps are fiber which actually seem to hold up pretty well. The only time I had any issues with end caps were ironically on Motorcrafts with metal end caps, which separated from the glue.
I mainly buy Wix, but for a couple reasons. NAPA is the closest to my house by a long shot, and their filters are solid.
Manufacturing changes. What is a good brand today might not be tomorrow if they cheapen materials. 3 years ago Purolator was the go-to cheap filter. Not anymore with all the tearing of media. Lots of videos online about Fram and their "cardboard" end caps. Well the end caps are fiber which actually seem to hold up pretty well. The only time I had any issues with end caps were ironically on Motorcrafts with metal end caps, which separated from the glue.
I mainly buy Wix, but for a couple reasons. NAPA is the closest to my house by a long shot, and their filters are solid.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
If you're referring to the air cooled VW engines, I have to disagree-a lot of them didn't make it to 100K without needing a rebuild-they were really hard on oil, especially a multigrade like 10W40.
Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
If you're referring to the air cooled VW engines, I have to disagree-a lot of them didn't make it to 100K without needing a rebuild-they were really hard on oil, especially a multigrade like 10W40.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
If you're referring to the air cooled VW engines, I have to disagree-a lot of them didn't make it to 100K without needing a rebuild-they were really hard on oil, especially a multigrade like 10W40.
They sure didn't. People on here often bring up those engines and make comments about them having long lives, but that's not true.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
If you're referring to the air cooled VW engines, I have to disagree-a lot of them didn't make it to 100K without needing a rebuild-they were really hard on oil, especially a multigrade like 10W40.
They sure didn't. People on here often bring up those engines and make comments about them having long lives, but that's not true.
I was a Fram basher. Frams, even the OCOD are A-OK for the majority of engines out there. I think the Tough Guard is fine for OEM OCIs using OLMs and the Ultra if you're nit-picky or want a filter that's built well and can run a long time.
However, Hyundai and Cummins made some noise about Frams causing engine noise or engine damage(from manufacturing and engineering flaws) and sometimes OEM is best.
However, Hyundai and Cummins made some noise about Frams causing engine noise or engine damage(from manufacturing and engineering flaws) and sometimes OEM is best.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
If you're referring to the air cooled VW engines, I have to disagree-a lot of them didn't make it to 100K without needing a rebuild-they were really hard on oil, especially a multigrade like 10W40.
I think it's build quality and oil quality not the lack of the filter. A lot of vehicles were terrible back then.
Lets look at lawn equipment that live their whole lives without filters and most without many if any oil changes. My dad's Tecumseh lawn mower went 22 years and was used every week from spring to fall over that period for multiple hours each time. I know he changed the oil in it a couple of times but it couldn't have been more than 3 or 4 over that period and it only had about 1/2 a litre of oil in it so the ratio of metal bits to oil would be high. The deck rotted out or I'm sure he would still have it.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Don't forget the VW engines that had no filter and lived long lives if looked after.
If you're referring to the air cooled VW engines, I have to disagree-a lot of them didn't make it to 100K without needing a rebuild-they were really hard on oil, especially a multigrade like 10W40.
I think it's build quality and oil quality not the lack of the filter. A lot of vehicles were terrible back then.
Lets look at lawn equipment that live their whole lives without filters and most without many if any oil changes. My dad's Tecumseh lawn mower went 22 years and was used every week from spring to fall over that period for multiple hours each time. I know he changed the oil in it a couple of times but it couldn't have been more than 3 or 4 over that period and it only had about 1/2 a litre of oil in it so the ratio of metal bits to oil would be high. The deck rotted out or I'm sure he would still have it.
Last edited:
With respect to VW beatles. I used to work in a Volkswagen dealership in the early 70's. One fourth of July weekend about 20 VWs were waiting in the service lane to have replacement engines put in. It was 104F in the shade. Those engines could not take WOT headed west on I-80 (gradual incline) especially if the owner was not spot on with their oil changes and kept the screen clean. Oils of the time were not the quality that we have today. Factory oil change was 2000 miles IIRC. Since they are air cooled, the tolerances had to be generous. As a result they would consume oil. With a low oil volume, it was easy to run low on oil. Once I saw what was happening, my interest for VWs dropped and I have steered clear of the brand.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2017
- Messages
- 312
Originally Posted By: Chevrolet
Originally Posted By: NormanBuntz
AA has stopped carrying Quaker State. I guess their oil must be bad.
O'Reilly's has stopped carry QS as well.
Interesting, I wonder why.
Originally Posted By: NormanBuntz
AA has stopped carrying Quaker State. I guess their oil must be bad.
O'Reilly's has stopped carry QS as well.
Interesting, I wonder why.
Last edited:
It's a lot of talk, I've never heard of an engine failure directly linked back to a Fram filter. I bought into that hype for awhile and quit using them until I joined BITOG and realized how ignorant I was.
Right now, Purolator is the one to steer clear of. Only one I'd ever run if I had to would be a Boss because the screen backed media would be impossible to tear. It's sad because Purolator used to be one of the best and most highly regarded filters in the automotive world. I don't know how much extra wear to an engine a torn filter would cause but I'd rather not risk it so I steer clear of them. The lube shop I used to work at used Performax filters, made by Purolator and a lot of customers' sometimes pushed 10k+ OCI's on those things and never had a problem but I still wouldn't run them knowingly unless it was a vehicle I didn't give squat about.
Right now, Purolator is the one to steer clear of. Only one I'd ever run if I had to would be a Boss because the screen backed media would be impossible to tear. It's sad because Purolator used to be one of the best and most highly regarded filters in the automotive world. I don't know how much extra wear to an engine a torn filter would cause but I'd rather not risk it so I steer clear of them. The lube shop I used to work at used Performax filters, made by Purolator and a lot of customers' sometimes pushed 10k+ OCI's on those things and never had a problem but I still wouldn't run them knowingly unless it was a vehicle I didn't give squat about.
Fram Ultra XG7317 on the Odyssey and XG9018 in the Cobalt. This is my first Ultra in the Cobalt since I have not seen terribly good reviews of their cartridge filters. For as many vehicles as they are used in, I don't see a fair share of reports on them on good ole BITOG. I'm curious to what my 9018 looks like when I pull it from the Cobalt, ie tear, twisted, whatever. What's the latest with their cartridge filters? It seems tough to piece together a whole story here. Did they update the dimensions/fit or somehow solve the tears from being twisted, which seems to be par for the course for Ecotec filters.
Originally Posted By: jongies3
It's a lot of talk, I've never heard of an engine failure directly linked back to a Fram filter. I bought into that hype for awhile and quit using them until I joined BITOG and realized how ignorant I was.
Right now, Purolator is the one to steer clear of. Only one I'd ever run if I had to would be a Boss because the screen backed media would be impossible to tear. It's sad because Purolator used to be one of the best and most highly regarded filters in the automotive world. I don't know how much extra wear to an engine a torn filter would cause but I'd rather not risk it so I steer clear of them. The lube shop I used to work at used Performax filters, made by Purolator and a lot of customers' sometimes pushed 10k+ OCI's on those things and never had a problem but I still wouldn't run them knowingly unless it was a vehicle I didn't give squat about.
That was me as well. An engineer I worked with told me that it didn't really matter that it had cardboard end caps.
I actually had this weird issue with Wix filters causing my oil pressure light to stay on longer on startup, so I switched back to Fram.
It's a lot of talk, I've never heard of an engine failure directly linked back to a Fram filter. I bought into that hype for awhile and quit using them until I joined BITOG and realized how ignorant I was.
Right now, Purolator is the one to steer clear of. Only one I'd ever run if I had to would be a Boss because the screen backed media would be impossible to tear. It's sad because Purolator used to be one of the best and most highly regarded filters in the automotive world. I don't know how much extra wear to an engine a torn filter would cause but I'd rather not risk it so I steer clear of them. The lube shop I used to work at used Performax filters, made by Purolator and a lot of customers' sometimes pushed 10k+ OCI's on those things and never had a problem but I still wouldn't run them knowingly unless it was a vehicle I didn't give squat about.
That was me as well. An engineer I worked with told me that it didn't really matter that it had cardboard end caps.
I actually had this weird issue with Wix filters causing my oil pressure light to stay on longer on startup, so I switched back to Fram.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
With respect to VW beatles. I used to work in a Volkswagen dealership in the early 70's. One fourth of July weekend about 20 VWs were waiting in the service lane to have replacement engines put in. It was 104F in the shade. Those engines could not take WOT headed west on I-80 (gradual incline) especially if the owner was not spot on with their oil changes and kept the screen clean. Oils of the time were not the quality that we have today. Factory oil change was 2000 miles IIRC. Since they are air cooled, the tolerances had to be generous. As a result they would consume oil. With a low oil volume, it was easy to run low on oil. Once I saw what was happening, my interest for VWs dropped and I have steered clear of the brand.
Yes-I actually had 2-a '64 Beetle (my 1st car, the rusty 6V electrical system death trap), and a '73 Type III Squareback. If you used straight 30HD (or HDEO diesel oil) and kept them topped up, they would survive fairly well-but several local garages made their living putting "jug kits" (pistons, rings, and cylinders) in them regularly. The '64 was a pain, it needed bump started any time it was below 30F (which was all the time in '80-'82 in winter when I had it), the '73 actually wasn't bad, with it's fuel injected 1600 & 4 speed-but those cars were archaic compared to ANYTHING built today! Aftermarket filter kits were available for them, but I didn't know enough about the VWs to get one-and they both died ugly body deaths from rust anyway.
With respect to VW beatles. I used to work in a Volkswagen dealership in the early 70's. One fourth of July weekend about 20 VWs were waiting in the service lane to have replacement engines put in. It was 104F in the shade. Those engines could not take WOT headed west on I-80 (gradual incline) especially if the owner was not spot on with their oil changes and kept the screen clean. Oils of the time were not the quality that we have today. Factory oil change was 2000 miles IIRC. Since they are air cooled, the tolerances had to be generous. As a result they would consume oil. With a low oil volume, it was easy to run low on oil. Once I saw what was happening, my interest for VWs dropped and I have steered clear of the brand.
Yes-I actually had 2-a '64 Beetle (my 1st car, the rusty 6V electrical system death trap), and a '73 Type III Squareback. If you used straight 30HD (or HDEO diesel oil) and kept them topped up, they would survive fairly well-but several local garages made their living putting "jug kits" (pistons, rings, and cylinders) in them regularly. The '64 was a pain, it needed bump started any time it was below 30F (which was all the time in '80-'82 in winter when I had it), the '73 actually wasn't bad, with it's fuel injected 1600 & 4 speed-but those cars were archaic compared to ANYTHING built today! Aftermarket filter kits were available for them, but I didn't know enough about the VWs to get one-and they both died ugly body deaths from rust anyway.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
With respect to VW beatles. I used to work in a Volkswagen dealership in the early 70's. One fourth of July weekend about 20 VWs were waiting in the service lane to have replacement engines put in. It was 104F in the shade. Those engines could not take WOT headed west on I-80 (gradual incline) especially if the owner was not spot on with their oil changes and kept the screen clean. Oils of the time were not the quality that we have today. Factory oil change was 2000 miles IIRC. Since they are air cooled, the tolerances had to be generous. As a result they would consume oil. With a low oil volume, it was easy to run low on oil. Once I saw what was happening, my interest for VWs dropped and I have steered clear of the brand.
Yes-I actually had 2-a '64 Beetle (my 1st car, the rusty 6V electrical system death trap), and a '73 Type III Squareback. If you used straight 30HD (or HDEO diesel oil) and kept them topped up, they would survive fairly well-but several local garages made their living putting "jug kits" (pistons, rings, and cylinders) in them regularly. The '64 was a pain, it needed bump started any time it was below 30F (which was all the time in '80-'82 in winter when I had it), the '73 actually wasn't bad, with it's fuel injected 1600 & 4 speed-but those cars were archaic compared to ANYTHING built today! Aftermarket filter kits were available for them, but I didn't know enough about the VWs to get one-and they both died ugly body deaths from rust anyway.
My dad had a ‘63 and my sister had a ‘61. The rest of us observed and learned. There are no VWs in the family. And you are correct later models were improved. Just not enough to change my mind. If you put someone over 150lbs in the RR seat, there was a good possibility the springs in the seat would short out the 6v battery. And yes, I used to get them rolling, and pop the clutch in 2nd gear to start when cold. We got better service life out of the domestic vehicles (Olds, Chevy and Ford).
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
With respect to VW beatles. I used to work in a Volkswagen dealership in the early 70's. One fourth of July weekend about 20 VWs were waiting in the service lane to have replacement engines put in. It was 104F in the shade. Those engines could not take WOT headed west on I-80 (gradual incline) especially if the owner was not spot on with their oil changes and kept the screen clean. Oils of the time were not the quality that we have today. Factory oil change was 2000 miles IIRC. Since they are air cooled, the tolerances had to be generous. As a result they would consume oil. With a low oil volume, it was easy to run low on oil. Once I saw what was happening, my interest for VWs dropped and I have steered clear of the brand.
Yes-I actually had 2-a '64 Beetle (my 1st car, the rusty 6V electrical system death trap), and a '73 Type III Squareback. If you used straight 30HD (or HDEO diesel oil) and kept them topped up, they would survive fairly well-but several local garages made their living putting "jug kits" (pistons, rings, and cylinders) in them regularly. The '64 was a pain, it needed bump started any time it was below 30F (which was all the time in '80-'82 in winter when I had it), the '73 actually wasn't bad, with it's fuel injected 1600 & 4 speed-but those cars were archaic compared to ANYTHING built today! Aftermarket filter kits were available for them, but I didn't know enough about the VWs to get one-and they both died ugly body deaths from rust anyway.
My dad had a ‘63 and my sister had a ‘61. The rest of us observed and learned. There are no VWs in the family. And you are correct later models were improved. Just not enough to change my mind. If you put someone over 150lbs in the RR seat, there was a good possibility the springs in the seat would short out the 6v battery. And yes, I used to get them rolling, and pop the clutch in 2nd gear to start when cold. We got better service life out of the domestic vehicles (Olds, Chevy and Ford).
Fram seems to have worked on any issues and makes an acceptable product. The big thing modern I see is the ever increasing war of mileages and efficiency numbers. The highest accurate efficiency rating is 98.67%, so all the numbers higher must be extrapolation of a graph or something. All the main aftermarket companies are on this band wagon. According to Fram themselves, anything stated over 98.67% @ any microns, has no meaning in the efficiency test.
Air cooled VW beetles had an oil cooler that partially shrouded #3 cylinder head. Dropped valves on that cylinder were far from unknown in UK summers, so I can imagine it being a problem in southern States. Relocating the oil cooler was a big help.
Back then 100k miles was a reasonable life for most European engines, and VW engines were cheap and easy to relace.
Claud.
Back then 100k miles was a reasonable life for most European engines, and VW engines were cheap and easy to relace.
Claud.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
With respect to VW beatles. I used to work in a Volkswagen dealership in the early 70's. One fourth of July weekend about 20 VWs were waiting in the service lane to have replacement engines put in. It was 104F in the shade. Those engines could not take WOT headed west on I-80 (gradual incline) especially if the owner was not spot on with their oil changes and kept the screen clean. Oils of the time were not the quality that we have today. Factory oil change was 2000 miles IIRC. Since they are air cooled, the tolerances had to be generous. As a result they would consume oil. With a low oil volume, it was easy to run low on oil. Once I saw what was happening, my interest for VWs dropped and I have steered clear of the brand.
I had a 1974 Super Beetle from 1974 until 2002. It always had Castrol 20W50 oil that was changed every 2000 miles. I'd drop the 'filter' screen and clean it, put a new gasket set in and button it up. Every 3d oil change, I'd also do a valve adjustment check, pull, clean and replace the plugs. It was a royal pain in the putz.
Fan/alternator belt got changed when needed, or when it came apart, whichever came first. The transmission case was drained and refilled every 50,000 miles. The only major work ever done on that engine to pull it to replace the clutch every 50-60 thousand miles. The clutches on Beetles left a lot to be desired. It had over 250,000 miles on it when I let her go . . . and it was still running strong.
With respect to VW beatles. I used to work in a Volkswagen dealership in the early 70's. One fourth of July weekend about 20 VWs were waiting in the service lane to have replacement engines put in. It was 104F in the shade. Those engines could not take WOT headed west on I-80 (gradual incline) especially if the owner was not spot on with their oil changes and kept the screen clean. Oils of the time were not the quality that we have today. Factory oil change was 2000 miles IIRC. Since they are air cooled, the tolerances had to be generous. As a result they would consume oil. With a low oil volume, it was easy to run low on oil. Once I saw what was happening, my interest for VWs dropped and I have steered clear of the brand.
I had a 1974 Super Beetle from 1974 until 2002. It always had Castrol 20W50 oil that was changed every 2000 miles. I'd drop the 'filter' screen and clean it, put a new gasket set in and button it up. Every 3d oil change, I'd also do a valve adjustment check, pull, clean and replace the plugs. It was a royal pain in the putz.
Fan/alternator belt got changed when needed, or when it came apart, whichever came first. The transmission case was drained and refilled every 50,000 miles. The only major work ever done on that engine to pull it to replace the clutch every 50-60 thousand miles. The clutches on Beetles left a lot to be desired. It had over 250,000 miles on it when I let her go . . . and it was still running strong.
I had a 1974 Super Beetle from 1974 until 2002. The only major work ever done on that engine to pull it to replace the clutch every 50-60 thousand miles. The clutches on Beetles left a lot to be desired. [/quote]
Major work?. The first Beetle clutch I changed took me about an hour. I could do it in about 30 minutes if I put some effort into it after I had done a few more. I think the record is something like three minutes start to finish....
Roger.
Major work?. The first Beetle clutch I changed took me about an hour. I could do it in about 30 minutes if I put some effort into it after I had done a few more. I think the record is something like three minutes start to finish....
Roger.
- Status
