2008 Duramax LMM Amsoil Premium Diesel Oil 5W40

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Like Mr. Newton has already said, your oil will accumulate fuel contamination and start showing signs of accelerated wear with just one or 2000 miles more use The fuel is ending up in the oil because of your emissions system which is like a "afterburner" burning soot out of the soot filter. Because of that with your current set up it is impossible to get full value out of synthetic oil. Furthermore even with your bypass system soot in the oil accumulate due to EGR.
In summary the villain that prevents you from using your oil from more than 8 to 10,000 miles is the emission system. If it is legal in your state, you could "delete" and then go 20 to 30,000 miles on an oil change, doing UOAs of course.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Toptierpao
... and the air filter is changed yearly at 10,000 miles or less.

Truck is parked outside and the block heater is used every day,even in summer. .... I do not drive the truck in winter or when it snows.



Changing your air filter annually with less than 10k miles is NOT filtering the air "better". In fact, it's quite likely you'll induce a bit more wear, because the bulk of contamination passes through the filter in the earilest part of it's life-cycle. That's not my opinion; that information comes from Jim Allen, our member here and long-time automotive tech article writer, who's toured Fram and Parker filter facilities.
http://www.trailerlife.com/tech/diy/the-truth-about-engine-air-filtration/
"This is why early or overly frequent filter changes are not advised because, according to Wake, 90 percent of the lifetime amount of dirt that passes through a filter does so in the first 10 percent of use."
The Dmax comes with a vacuum based filter minder; presuming you've not discarded it for some other system, just follow it.



Let me understand this - You don't drive the truck in winter.
So you think you need a block heater and a PAO ... for starting your Dmax in summer in VT?
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Wow .... Just wow ...
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.

"Wow .... Just wow ... crzy"

You are funny.I like you,however,that is how I feel about you running your truck which is Direct Injected and has a CR of almost 17:1, for 10 plus hours per day with EGT's at 1200-1300 degrees on conventional 30W oil. The combustion chambers hellacious heat,piston tops,ring lands,and side skirts had a field day eating away at your oil.On top of that,you are not changing the oil which has over 11.5k miles of hard use and are thinking about going an additional year? A dangerous game that will bite you in the tail over time imo to prove that a 10W30 is good enough.

The reason diesels have always been specked for a xxW40 is to help keep viscosity with expected dilution. We do not even know the real dilution number with your uoa. Would not be surprised if oil viscosity was in the 20's and God knows what it was going thru the turbo at those temps for the duration you mentioned.

Elsewhere,you state that you do not fall under severe service conditions.What do you consider to be severe service? Flames shooting from under your fenders?...
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In reference to the block heater,I said it was over kill,but,why should I change? It certainly hurts nothing and I never had batteries last 9 years.

Air filters.....On our cars,I was changing them every 15-20k miles or every 1-2 years.Diesel trucks,I drive them 10k miles or less per year,so,I change them yearly. A dirty filter on anything with a turbo makes for an inefficient engine and the turbo will spin faster than it has to which will,in time,shorten life. Needless to say,a faster spinning turbo puts even more stress on the oil.

 
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Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Like Mr. Newton has already said, your oil will accumulate fuel contamination and start showing signs of accelerated wear with just one or 2000 miles more use The fuel is ending up in the oil because of your emissions system which is like a "afterburner" burning soot out of the soot filter. Because of that with your current set up it is impossible to get full value out of synthetic oil. Furthermore even with your bypass system soot in the oil accumulate due to EGR.
In summary the villain that prevents you from using your oil from more than 8 to 10,000 miles is the emission system. If it is legal in your state, you could "delete" and then go 20 to 30,000 miles on an oil change, doing UOAs of course.


Thank you for your comments Charlie.A "delete" in my state is NOT legal,although I know some here do go that route.I am not sure how expensive it is to do one,but,I will look into it next summer.
 
Originally Posted By: Toptierpao
You are funny.I like you,however,that is how I feel about you running your truck which is Direct Injected and has a CR of almost 17:1, for 10 plus hours per day with EGT's at 1200-1300 degrees on conventional 30W oil. The combustion chambers hellacious heat,piston tops,ring lands,and side skirts had a field day eating away at your oil.On top of that,you are not changing the oil which has over 11.5k miles of hard use and are thinking about going an additional year? A dangerous game that will bite you in the tail over time imo to prove that a 10W30 is good enough.

The reason diesels have always been specked for a xxW40 is to help keep viscosity with expected dilution. We do not even know the real dilution number with your uoa. Would not be surprised if oil viscosity was in the 20's and God knows what it was going thru the turbo at those temps for the duration you mentioned.

Elsewhere,you state that you do not fall under severe service conditions.What do you consider to be severe service? Flames shooting from under your fenders?...
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In reference to the block heater,I said it was over kill,but,why should I change? It certainly hurts nothing and I never had batteries last 9 years.

Air filters.....On our cars,I was changing them every 15-20k miles or every 1-2 years.Diesel trucks,I drive them 10k miles or less per year,so,I change them yearly. A dirty filter on anything with a turbo makes for an inefficient engine and the turbo will spin faster than it has to which will,in time,shorten life. Needless to say,a faster spinning turbo puts even more stress on the oil.




Yeah, all my "hellacious" adventures have ended up with perfectly normal wear rates, despite your ongoing, never-ending dooms-day predictions.

Diesels have been spec'd for a lot of different lubes; certainly 15w-40 being predominant for a long time. But that was due to a few things like VII degradation (shearing) and lesser control over manufacturing clearances, etc, so a "thick' lube was preferred. It was NOT because of dilution; that's a fairly new concern due to regens for DPF function. 15w-40 was never spec'd due to regens; the use of 15w-40 predated dilution concerns by a few decades. Your facts are grossly flawed. Also, today, 10w-30 is spec'd in a lot of OEM applications such as from CAT, Volvo, etc in the most demanding of OTR and off-road applications.

The "severe service" I was referring to was in regard to the Allison trans, and how THEY define severe service. You don't read closely enough. No flames coming out from under my hood, thanks.

Apparently you didn't read the article by Jim Allen about air filters. There is clear evidence that overly frequent air filter changes have the propensity to induce greater intake of contamination. But then again, I don't think you ever read the UOA normalcy article either. So I'm not surprised.



It's your truck. Have at it. Do what yo want; no one is stopping you. Just don't try to convince us that your plan is the only one worthy of use, and that they rest of us are killing our investments, just because we don't subscribe to the "always the most expensive, all the time, as frequently as possible" routine. You stick to your mythology and rhetoric. I'll stick to facts and data from real world applications.
 
dnewton3 wrote>>>“Diesels have been spec'd for a lot of different lubes; certainly 15w-40 being predominant for a long time. But that was due to a few things like VII degradation (shearing) and lesser control over manufacturing clearances, etc, so a "thick' lube was preferred. It was NOT because of dilution; that's a fairly new concern due to regens for DPF function. 15w-40 was never spec'd due to regens; the use of 15w-40 predated dilution concerns by a few decades. Your facts are grossly flawed. Also, today, 10w-30 is spec'd in a lot of OEM applications such as from CAT, Volvo, etc in the most demanding of OTR and off-road applications. “

The 10W30 oils are reserved mainly for the newer vehicles/equipment due to the EPA/Government pushing for tighter fuel economy/emissions standards. The new trucks run hotter than older generations and the trucks scheduled to come online will run hotter yet as the EPA keeps pushing. Todays oils in modern engines are the weak link which is why we have the new classification of oils.

We shall disagree on our dilution comments. The older diesels use to leak at the injectors like a sieve.Fuel dilution in diesels is not new,in fact,3% was always considered the norm which is why a 15W40 was used. The trucks like mine in the 2007.5-2010 usually show double that with some reports as high as 10%!

You seriously think your truck,in the manner that you use it,should not fall under “severe” service?

dnewton3 wrote>>>“Apparently you didn't read the article by Jim Allen about air filters. There is clear evidence that overly frequent air filter changes have the propensity to induce greater intake of contamination. But then again, I don't think you ever read the UOA normalcy article either. So I'm not surprised.”

I read both of those items and a lot more of other things you have written. You seem to think I say and do things blindly,however,I assure you that is not the case.There are a lot of things I do not post and consider myself quite lucky to know and associate myself with some super smart people in the racing field, the oil industry, as well as a friend/mentor who is a certified lubrication engineer. If anyone would like to see his comments on this UOA, I will post it or PM it to you.

If I put up a link like that(air filters), you would cry foul and would cite marketing.

By the way, my truck did not come with a filter minder. I have had them on some equipment as well as cars and found them pretty much useless. Some showed 50% while the filter was dirty as he!!. One car about 5 years ago threw a CEL. I have also learned via an actual analyst that a clean filter does a lot more good than bad in a variety of ways. His comments confirmed what the lubrication engineer conveyed to me as well.
 
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30 wt. was the norm in diesel specs until the early 90's across the board for almost every manufacturer.

I too run a 10w-30 in my 6.7 diesel, run until the IOLM sends the message "Change Oil Now", I have a UOA history from the beginning and it has returned flawless results, as it did in my previous '07 6.0 PowerStroke diesel. My 6.7 currently has 72,xxx mi. and the IOLM takes me 8,000-10,000 mi. per OC. Just because you think your truck "needs" a "toptierpao" to survive doesn't mean it does, as its an inanimate object and doesn't feel or need anything. As DNewton has repeatedly stated the data doesn't support your claims. I currently have 11 diesel engines, 3 marine, 4 truck, 2 tractors, 1 genset, and 1 pump. I UOA every piece of equipment to keep an eye on any premature failure, with each one using either 10w-30 or 15w-40. All of my off-road diesels are run at or very near governed speed daily with our first diesel being installed in one of our boats in 1970, this isn't something new to me and we have never had any oil related failure due to not using a "toptierpao".

Because one is an Amsoil dealer you have implied that I have done damage to my engines, I take offense to that as I currently have one marine diesel that has been in service for over 13,000 hrs., trouble-free. My trucks I keep 200,000-250,000 mi. and I have an '89 Ford Super Duty diesel that since new has hauled my equipment and idled for thousands of hrs. running an aux. hydraulic pump, with never a "toptierpao" in the sump.

The air filter info posted is also accurate and your statement of having a filterminder and it was useless is proof to me that you willingly look at data and then choose to ignore it. My marine diesels have Donaldson filters with filterminders, the housings have a notice,"DO NOT OVERSERVICE ELEMENT". Just because the element "looked" dirty doesn't condemn its serviceability, thats the filterminders job.
 
Agreed, RR1.

Formerly, many diesels were actually spec'd for 30 grade. Of note, our member here "ottomatic" ran his IDI 6.9L Ford/Navistar on the straight 30 conventional grade up until the day it was stolen with 450k miles on it! (yes, 450,000 miles!). But I guess a 40 grade PAO would have somehow made it "better".

And actually, today's engines run cooler due to EGR, not hotter. Many folks misunderstand how EGR effects the combustion process. The upside is that EGR actually cools the combustion, by reducing the heat and diluting available oxygen by a predetermined desired amount, so there's less of it left over for combining with nitrogen (to make NOx compounds). Don't ask me to explain past that; I'm not a chemist. But I do understand that EGR actually cools the combustion process. The one downside is that EGR puts soot back into the engine; an undesirable side effect. Cooling the EG prior to input is important so that the intake charge it not overly hot and does not cause the combustion process to be pre-disposed to pre-detonation. Hence, EGR coolers. Heat energy that would have been going down the exhaust pipe is first transferred to the coolant system, before the EG goes into the engine. Excessive heat is not generally going directly into the intake charge.

Further, today's engines have piston cooling jets and liquid cooled turbos. These help manage the "heat" in the engine system. All one has to do is look at the capability to understand the extreme heat management going on. All three (Ford, GM, Ram) make engines that put out over 900 ft-lb of torque, but can also tow 20,000+ (some over 30,000 lbs). And yet the SAE towing standard strictly determines how the testing is done in the real world. And these trucks never overheat. My point is that the cooling sytsems today are made to deal with this. Dual cooling loops, oil coolers, EGR coolers, etc. It's not just about the observed temps, but about heat transfer exchange rates. The cooling systems of today's diesel light-duty trucks have been substantially upgraded to deal with this.

Additionally, I recall that M37Charlie one stated his 'Mog can use either dino or syn, but the OCIs are not to be altered regardless which oil is used. The reason he uses syn is due to uber-cold starts in AK. At least that's what I recall him stating, more than once. 'Charlie, feel free to correct me if I have misquoted you here. But summers in VT really are not going to be an issue for a Dmax, especially if one uses the block heater in SUMMER.


So, Toptierpao, if you've read the articles I asked you to read, then would you like to comment on the topic of engine wear rates, and air filtration? Please cite your sources and bring credible evidence to the discussion. If you believe that PAOs are always the best for all things, then what evidence can you show to support that claim? What real world data can you point to that shows PAOs superior in all conditions? What air filter info do you have that would controvert Jim Allen's information and research?


YES - Toptierpao, please PM me any/all comments you believe relevant from your lube engineer friend, and make sure you cite his name and "certified" credentials, please.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3


Additionally, I recall that M37Charlie one stated his 'Mog can use either dino or syn, but the OCIs are not to be altered regardless which oil is used. The reason he uses syn is due to uber-cold starts in AK. At least that's what I recall him stating, more than once. 'Charlie, feel free to correct me if I have misquoted you here. But summers in VT really are not going to be an issue for a Dmax, especially if one uses the block heater in SUMMER.



Actually, from what my research has "unveiled", OCIs for the pre 2007 OM906LA are 400h with 228.1 oil (run of the mill 10W30 or 15W40), 700h with 228.3 (better oils like Grp. II and synblends but still 15W40 and 10W30);
only 1200h with 228.5 oils, mostly Grp.III "synthetics", a couple of Grp.IVs (mostly 10W40 and 5W30, with 2 Delvac 1 5W40s on the list). Synthetics like Delvac 1 ESP fall to 228.3 (actually 228.31 since it is OK for DPF) because of lower TBN (the importance of TBN I wonder about; my last OCI of 25.6Kmi included 8Kmi of 500ppm Russian fuel and 2000mi of 3000ppm Mongolian fuel, and TBN only dropped from 16 to 11.5).
Yes, I use 5W40 because of occaisonal subzero starts, but also the ability to run up to 45000 mi without an oil change if needed, like a trip to Ushuaia and back.
But our OP is an obligate 200h changer due to fuel dilution.

Charlie
 
Thank you Charlie- I stand corrected on the OCIs for your Mog. Was I wrong in recalling that you once stated what I claimed, but now clearly can do differently?

You are right; none of that should matter to the OP, who's going to have to dump oil frequently due to dilution. However, it's clear he's convinced himself that only a PAO will do.
 
I just wanted to say that I have tested the GM and Ford filter minders using a vacuum tester, and those things are on the money.

Dirty as a filter may look, if the minder said 50%, it was actually 50%.
 
This has been an interesting thread,as they all are. Now that I've taken a day off from hunting, I'm going to jump in with my brand of finger babble..hahaha.
Back in the mid 90's I became obsessed with using synthetic motor oil,and done extensive research on the internet as to it's advantages,such as longer drain intervals....cooler temps....less engine friction...yada yada. I worked for a paper mill for 30 yrs, and we used synthetics in our bearings which are enclosed housings,and sometimes would go weeks before seeing a oil change,after being run 24/7.Yes...a different type of application I know.. I used to work with a guy,who I consider to be one of the smartest,mechanical guys I have ever met, he raced cars as a hobby and built his own engines...and even back then,he spoke of the film left on engine parts,from conventional motor oil. That always kinda stuck in my brain, but I stuck with my synthetics. Even though I was brought up around heavy equipment for most of my life....bulldozers,skidders...backhoes..dump trucks, log trucks and so forth....and a uncle that was a diesel mechanic...and in all that equipment...Dino oil was/is used. I had been on the lookout for a diesel P/U for a while...last year,the timing and finances were right and I got a decent deal on a low mileage 2014 F350 6.7 P.S., I knew I was going to run dino oil in it. As we all know....diesel makes the oil dirty...I felt that dino would be better able to trap and suspend the impurities that a diesel would throw at it. There is a local garage that does all general repair, he has a Cummings for his daily driver and he uses 5-40 Syn....there is a diesel specialty shop a few miles away in another town,he also has a Cummings, he uses 15-40 dino....Both Cenpeco...if anyone is wondering. I use the 15-40 from April to November then swith to the 5-40 for the winter months. As of right now I do use Mobil 1 V-Twin syn in my motorcycle, but am leaning towards using Cenpeco's dino racing oil which is 20-50, in the spring. I talked to the local rep and he told me that the racing oil starts out with 2400 ppm of zinc....where as the 20-50 mobil 1 is 1800 i believe.
With the mandates set forth by the EPA, I no longer feel synthetic is the automatic,best choice. Of course UOA's will help me with my oil decision as far as my bike goes. I will take a sample of the 5-40 syn in the spring and compare it to the one I have with 15-40 dino...and will take samples with every oil change in my truck or bike.
 
Very interesting discussion! I'd like to add, I drove truck for a major LTL company. The motors in their trucks were Cummins ISX's and Detroit DD15's. On their motors produced after 2010, they did their oil changes at 50,000 mile intervals. The Company used Mobil Delvac Super 1300 conventional 15W40. One time I was in a company shop, and a mechanic was running the overhead on a DD15. I looked inside at the engine's head, and it was absolutely spotless. I checked the truck's odometer and the motor had over 750,000 miles on it. I was able to view a few more DD15's that were having overheads ran, and every one of those were equally clean, and these motors all had over 750,000 miles on them as well.

I know these were Class 8 trucks, so different application than the OP's Duramax motor, but I respectfully disagree with the OP's opinion that conventional HDEO's are inferior in regards to engine protection and cleanliness. Honestly, i can't envision how the top end of a motor could be any cleaner than what I saw. This company ran their trucks for over a million miles, with Drivers Slip-Seating in them, and they were all ran hard. They even had some of the older Cat C15 motors in the trucks used for pick ups and deliveries had better than 1.5 million miles on them, -although the Cat motors were on 25,000 or 30,000 miles OCIs. In fact, I talked a few times with the gentleman who was over fleet procurement, and I asked how the UOA's looked on the trucks on 50,000 mile OCIs, and he said, besides a few exceptions, the oil could easily do extended drains well past 50,000 miles.







Just my 2 cents.
 
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That is some great info. My nephew works for a privately owned lube shop...of course they do the typical drive in service, they also do rear ends, transfer case and transmissions...front differentials...they service a few small fleets. He said every single diesel that comes in,leaves with 15-40 conventional in it.
 
WEll I know that on my 04 i ran 15/40 dino for 100K and 5/40 "synthetic" for 100K and the UOA were right next to each other. zero discernible difference between them. So i switched back to dino.
Funny this guys statement about lots of fleets switching to synthetics, no. they are not. there is even a DElo campaign to get them to understand the dino oils are capable in handling the load.
the local taxi company here uses the cheapest oil it can get in bulk, and changes it ever 10K. they have had zero oil related issues in the several 100K miles on the cars.

in certain applications yes synthetic is better, but not when subjected to engine gasses. they are all about the same.

very educational reading,Thank you to all who contributed in a positive manner,
i like how you called him out and was like put up the data or shut it.!!! awesome.
 
Bugize, Dak27, Killer223 ...

How dare you all use personal experiences, first-hand observations, and real world data to make an informed decision? Don't you realize that bench-racing and mythology rule supreme at BITOG? What manner of men are you that would allow facts to sway your position? Clearly you cannot be trusted to make your own minds up.

Your BITOG membership cards are suspended until you realize that only PAOs can do anything worthwhile. Conventional oils not only assure equipment failure, but are the known cause of all environmental degradation, proven to incite social injustice, and are the catalyst of all things evil. Until you drink the synthetic Koolaid, you're obviously under a disillusion driven by your own intellect, and cannot be trusted.

I hereby scold you with the Rod of Rhetoric, and punish you by commanding you to sit in the time-out corner, saying 10 Hail-Moly's and 5 Our-Filters, and all will be forgiven.

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Lmao...DNewton...thank You for the morning chuckle,although...your words about caused me to drown while sipping my black coffee....haha.I absolutly love sarcasm
 
Originally Posted By: BoiseRob
Yes, they buy from Petro Canada because they were Mobil Canada back in the day so there's a long standing relationship with PC. Just like Pemex was Mobil in Mexico. As a "dealer", I would say you're biased with any/all of your comments whether you admit it or not. Your username says it all!
Schaeffer's offer free lab kits with their oils and for a couple of bucks, you can add tbn/tan to the test when you submit the sample.

On a positive note... I get to keep my paycheck!
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Just want to deal with this one statement.

Petro-Canada and Imperial Oil Canada are two totally separate companies. Imperial Oil is the Canadian branch of Exxon-Mobil in Canada; there is not really a 'Mobil Canada'.

Unfortunately this shows a lot of ignorance on the part of the OP.
 
dnewton3:

I really enjoy the fact-based logic that you apply and the time and effort that you take to articulate that understanding, even when your audience "doesn't know what they don't know". You are one of the highest value contributors on this forum, IMO. Thanks for that.
 
Well I "used" to be an Amsoil dealer and have family still in it. I have an uncle that is pretty high up in sales in the company. I know Amsoil's talking points.

Years ago there was a greater difference between their oil and dino, but that gap has really closed. Currently, unless you have a particular circumstance where a PAO is specified/required, it's doubtful you will see any measurable difference in protection over a lifetime in a "normal" application where the manufacturer allows a synthetic or dino lubricant to be used when following their service intervals.

In many applications the oil becomes contaminated before it is depleted, so even the longer drain potential of a synthetic is sort of a moot point.

Having said all that - I think most people realize that Amsoil does make a very good product. Where they are less than stellar in their marketing is trying to convince people that the current dinos give significantly degraded protection in normal applications--and well that is just pure bunk.
 
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