Is Crued Oil a Fosil Fuel or is it abiotic

[North to Alaska]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Our sister power station (in the company) runs lignite...as they mine, you can see the plant structures in the brown coal...often they get lumps of "wood" grain and all that won't mill as it goes through the milling equipment...

So in YOUR mental universe, how exactly did all those bits of tree, and leaf prints get there ?

Riddle me this...how do you get infinite oil out of a single globe ?


Did not know about the fossils in the coal....mia culpa, mia culpa!

So we have 2 contradictions. Coal fossils and seapage that eliminates the possibility of a finite quantity of oil.

Yes this rock called earth has a finite quantity of anything but I am talking about the oil reserves specifically.

Is it possible that, as another poster put it, oil is both biotic and abiotic?

 

[North to Alaska]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha


I think the fact we don't see petroleum emissions near hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor is quite significant. If petroleum was created in the mantle, shouldn't we see petroleum condensing out of the emissions of such vents in the deep cold ocean heat sink?


Good point.
Have we looked for them there?
Possibly for the same reason why there is no oil there, the environment for the creation is not conducive?

My final guess that the reserves are so enormous and deep that seepage will not deplete them as indicated by the refilling of the know oil reserves?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Iowegian
Coal fossils and seapage that eliminates the possibility of a finite quantity of oil.

Yes this rock called earth has a finite quantity of anything but I am talking about the oil reserves specifically.

Is it possible that, as another poster put it, oil is both biotic and abiotic?

No matter what the process, the oil is still finite, unless we're being bombarded with it in impacts constantly. Even if every molecule on earth could be magically transformed into a hydrocarbon instantaneously, that would still be a finite amount.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: Iowegian
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha


I think the fact we don't see petroleum emissions near hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor is quite significant. If petroleum was created in the mantle, shouldn't we see petroleum condensing out of the emissions of such vents in the deep cold ocean heat sink?


Good point.
Have we looked for them there?
Possibly for the same reason why there is no oil there, the environment for the creation is not conducive?

My final guess that the reserves are so enormous and deep that seepage will not deplete them as indicated by the refilling of the know oil reserves?


Yes scientists have captured & analyzed the emissions of deep sea hydrothermal vents since their discovery, especially interested in why life flourishes around them along the otherwise barren deep ocean floor. A chain of life having zero dependence on light, no photosynthesis involved, exists there. Instead, microbes specializing in chemosynthesis of the sulfur compounds emitted which are toxic to most other known forms of life form the foundation at these locations, and it's postulated this is actually the most likely analogy for the origins of life here after the last snowball earth phase. Not primordial ooze along the seashore having a Dr. Frankenstein style lightning strike catalyzing life into existence like many postulated when I was a schoolboy.

Since these deep sea hydrothermal vent emissions come from the magma layer through the crust, it would indeed appear conditions for forming petroleum do not exist in the earth's magma layer. The deep ocean can be considered a near infinite heat sink for the emissions from these hydrothermal vents, and the ambient pressure is enormous from the hydrostatic head of thousands of feet of sea water column above them. Ambient temperatures are near or below 32°F, as low as 28°F in supersaline areas of the deep ocean. So petroleum, or coal, emissions should condense rapidly within a short distance of these vents and form hydrate crystals at minimum.

Wouldn't you expect a spot like Iceland along the mid-Atlantic rift with active vulcanism to have rich deposits of petroleum if petroleum was generated in Earth's magma?

There are great beds of methane hydrate elsewhere in the ocean with life chains that feed on these, but these are from seeps in the crust, not hydrothermal emissions from the magma layer. Nations are paying close attention to the locations of these when discovered - they may become commercially viable to mine at some point in the future, and their presence shows a known hydrocarbon deposit, albeit of unknown volume. Careful consideration of just what is considered international waters is ongoing with research on these methane hydrate beds.

Regards,

Edward Nigma

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Iowegian
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Our sister power station (in the company) runs lignite...as they mine, you can see the plant structures in the brown coal...often they get lumps of "wood" grain and all that won't mill as it goes through the milling equipment...

So in YOUR mental universe, how exactly did all those bits of tree, and leaf prints get there ?

Riddle me this...how do you get infinite oil out of a single globe ?


Did not know about the fossils in the coal....mia culpa, mia culpa!


See, that's such a fundamental to how these hydrocarbon reserves were formed that it means that you are questioning something, that people have real, scientific knowledge of and coming from a position of virtually zero understanding.

You won't take any bodies facts as correct, as they don't gel with your required model of the universe...which is sadly lacking on the fundamental levels.

 

[Exhaustgases]

Just like with all the other lies we are told all generated to support a certain agenda.
Now if people would just use a small amount of logic the lies could be bypassed.
So how many trees and animals are in say cast iron? There is carbon in cast iron and many other materials. Also someone mentioned the carbon found on other planets and their moons.
Then as an experiment to see how much oil a dead animal produces you just bury a dead rat with a tray under it to catch all that oil that falls out of it, of course there will be none as bacteria eats it all. But remember that oil needs to travel through clay and glacial till, maybe even hard granite to get to the spot where the drills will find it. Just remember carbon is an element and can be found anyplace, the trees and other life seemed to have found it just fine. So if we all run around and believe the lie about fossils as the source for oil, then I suppose they are the source for diamonds as well.
I read someone posted finite. Except for the cycles that have been created, the simple cycle of how rain and snow is produced. Same with burning of mineral oil(the correct name, not fossil bla bla)the by products end up back in the system to create more oil. Water is the carrier of the minerals that oil is made from, internal earth heat is the oven that cooks the stew. And is why the oil that is thought to be gone magically reappears after so many years ie dried up wells.

 

[Shannow]

I suppose that you don't believe in Australia, and that the space shuttles couldn't have made it through the dome too ?

 

[Ducked]

You build all this stuff:-

Originally Posted By: Exhaustgases
Just like with all the other lies we are told all generated to support a certain agenda.
Now if people would just use a small amount of logic the lies could be bypassed.
So how many trees and animals are in say cast iron? There is carbon in cast iron and many other materials. Also someone mentioned the carbon found on other planets and their moons.
Then as an experiment to see how much oil a dead animal produces you just bury a dead rat with a tray under it to catch all that oil that falls out of it, of course there will be none as bacteria eats it all. But remember that oil needs to travel through clay and glacial till, maybe even hard granite to get to the spot where the drills will find it. Just remember carbon is an element and can be found anyplace, the trees and other life seemed to have found it just fine. So if we all run around and believe the lie about fossils as the source for oil, then I suppose they are the source for diamonds as well.
I read someone posted finite. Except for the cycles that have been created, the simple cycle of how rain and snow is produced. Same with burning of mineral oil(the correct name, not fossil bla bla)the by products end up back in the system to create more oil. Water is the carrier of the minerals that oil is made from, internal earth heat is the oven that cooks the stew. {/quote]

On THIS?

And is why the oil that is thought to be gone magically reappears after so many years ie dried up wells.


Never try and build a house.

My (admittedly less-than-semi-educated ) model is of oil in porous rock.

It doesn't seem especially surprising that more pumpable oil would accumulate into the reservoir if given enough "fallow" seepage time.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
It doesn't seem especially surprising that more pumpable oil would accumulate into the reservoir if given enough "fallow" seepage time.


Yep, suck on one end of a sponge, and it will go dry...leave it, and it gets wet again.

It's one of the sillier examples that these people use...

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I suppose that you don't believe in Australia, and that the space shuttles couldn't have made it through the dome too ?


To be fair, I do find Australia pretty unlikely, even though I've been there.

Twice.

I needed to double-check.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Iowegian
Coal fossils and seapage that eliminates the possibility of a finite quantity of oil.

Yes this rock called earth has a finite quantity of anything but I am talking about the oil reserves specifically.

Is it possible that, as another poster put it, oil is both biotic and abiotic?



Owing to the high amount of carbon atoms in coal and other fossil fuels, and the limited amount of ocean biotics, and calculated amount of vegetation on an older earth, I think all fossil fuels have been enriched with deep earth methanes.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Iowegian
Coal fossils and seapage that eliminates the possibility of a finite quantity of oil.

Yes this rock called earth has a finite quantity of anything but I am talking about the oil reserves specifically.

Is it possible that, as another poster put it, oil is both biotic and abiotic?



Owing to the high amount of carbon atoms in coal and other fossil fuels, and the limited amount of ocean biotics, and calculated amount of vegetation on an older earth, I think all fossil fuels have been enriched with deep earth methanes.


I think that you are wrong...ever been to a lignite mine ?
…and after that a black coal mine ?

Brown coal tells you exactly what it used to be.

This area has multiple seams of coal, which formed over millenia of vegetation growing, and being covered as flood plains moved...as to the "calculated" amount of vegetation, calculated over what timeframe, with what early atmosphere ?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

My two cents, No.

Organisms on earth are primarily comprised of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen in that order. Carbon is no 2 so when organisms die these elements move elsewhere in the system however some become entombed in the earth. This is how the cycle on our planet operates. The ecosystem on earth as a whole operates like one big carbon sink. The Sun and the heat of the earth are the energy sources which drive the system. So when we burn hydrocarbons, the energy that is released came from the sun and heat of the earth. Hydrocarbons are simply high density batteries which stored that energy.


Could it happen spontaneously? I guess, but I don't know if there's any non-biological method which can sequester all of the components needed to create crude oil.

Gases such as methane (aka Natural Gas) appear throughout the universe, but the energy density is quite low compared to crude oil.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


I think that you are wrong...ever been to a lignite mine ?
…and after that a black coal mine ?

Brown coal tells you exactly what it used to be.

This area has multiple seams of coal, which formed over millenia of vegetation growing, and being covered as flood plains moved...as to the "calculated" amount of vegetation, calculated over what timeframe, with what early atmosphere ?


I grew up in Kentucky near coal mines so I have seen all types of coal and its geological context.

I base my statement on the calculations of the amount of past matter that theoretically made up coal and oil, and upon laboratory analysis of the carbon content in coal verses the amount of matter that is contained therein.

 

[Nyogtha]

Link to calculations mentioned?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Link to calculations mentioned?


Timeframe calculated over would be useful also

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Shannow


I think that you are wrong...ever been to a lignite mine ?
…and after that a black coal mine ?

Brown coal tells you exactly what it used to be.

This area has multiple seams of coal, which formed over millenia of vegetation growing, and being covered as flood plains moved...as to the "calculated" amount of vegetation, calculated over what timeframe, with what early atmosphere ?


I grew up in Kentucky near coal mines so I have seen all types of coal and its geological context.

I base my statement on the calculations of the amount of past matter that theoretically made up coal and oil, and upon laboratory analysis of the carbon content in coal verses the amount of matter that is contained therein.


OK, so when you saw the brown coal reserves, what was the ash content, water content, volatile to fixed carbon, and clearly identifiable things like...lets say...tree stumps. Take a tree stump from a brown coal deposit, and it's next to useless as a standalone fuel...and there's no mechanism for it to have absorbed the (abiotic...I am using that term in place of your term) methane that you have posited.

Go to black coal...been there longer, a few more million years, a bit more pressure and temperature...there is less volume...certainly less inherent moisture, the ash content (clay if you will) is very much higher, and the deposits thinner, by an order of magnitude...fixed carbon is higher, volatiles are much lower, and evidence of tree stumps much reduced...all indicative of the progression, over millions of years from surface vegetation going through a progression of processes into progressively "higher" grades of coal.

I believe that the calculations that you have suggested of "past matter" e.g. the energy ratio per volume of peat versus coal are flawed, and intentionally so for a target audience.

Happy to be convinced otherwise, and to hear of your personal observations.

I can see 3 or 4 separate coal seams, separated by various forms of sedimentary rock within a half hour drive of my house...they didn't occur at the same time in history, due to a singular, short time frame event.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Link to calculations mentioned?


Hunt, J.M., Distribution of carbon in crust of earth, American Association of Petroleum Geologists, Bulletin 56, (11), :2273-2277, 1972.

Bierdderman, et. al., Inorganic origin of petroleum: Discussion, American Association of Petroleum Geologists, Bulletin 59, (5), :884, 1975.

Gold, et. al., Abiogenic Methane and the Origin of Petroleum, Energy Exploration and Exploitation, 1 (2):98, 1982.

Sylvester-Bradley, et. al., Evidence for Abiogenic hydrocarbons, Nature, 198 (4882):728-731, 1963.

Hayatsu, et. al., Correlations between chemical and geologic origin of anthroxilite from the Gunflint formation, Thunder Bay, Ontario, Economic Geology, 78 (1):178, 1983.


As you can see, the debate between abiogenic and organic origins of fossil fuels is not new and goes back to at least 1963.

Geologist W.G. Woolnough stated, "Again, nowhere in the world, at present, can accumulations of vegetable matter be found which are quantitatively commensurate with any of the major coal deposits of past geologic time."

W.G. Woolnough, Sedimentation in barred basins and source rocks of oil, Origin of Evaporates, A.A.P.C.reprint Series, American Association of Petroleum Geologists, Tulsa, Page 6, 1971.

 

[MolaKule]

Later Reference:

van Krevelen, D.W., Coal:Typology, physics, chemistry, constitution [3d ed.]: Amsterdam, Elsevier, 1993.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
and to hear of your personal observations.



My recollections were of a surface coal mine in which they used Draglines.

I would describe most of the coal as being bituminous and some sub-bituminous and interspersed with lignite.