2015 Dodge Challenger Hellcat

[StevieC]

Their manual doesn't say "Formal Approval" or "API Certified" or >

It says "Recomended" "Meeting Spec MS-12633" Not "Officially meeting spec MS-12633" or something to that effect.

 

[turboaccord1]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Beautiful car BTW, and I didn't mean to detract from that with the above post

I am aware that the amsoil is not a formal approval. If I'm not mistaken I saw a couple voa's of the Srt pennzoil stuff and it didn't look to impressive. The additive package looked average and the viscosity was on the lower end of the range for a 40 weight. I know dodge did extensive stress testing of this drivetrain I'm sure with the pennzoil lube but I'm not convinced it's the best oil for the money. Especially for track use. And the amsoil 0w-40 may not be either. I really wish amsoil made dominator In a 40 weight for when I really pound on it.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Which if you look on Amsoil they will list these specs for their oils.


Yes, but this is one of those "recommended for" applications only. Amsoil does not have an official MS-12633 approval from Chrysler, AFAIK.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC

Use AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil in applications
that require any of the following specifications:

0W-40 (AZF): API SN, SM…; Chrysler MS-12633, MS-10725, MS-10850;

Yes, that's a recommendation for applications, not formal approvals. We know it isn't API approved either, but there sit both API SN and SM in that list.

 

[StevieC]

No one does except it looks like Mopar & Pennzoil but they can't mandate you to use Mopar / Pennzoil or they would have to provide it for free according to laws in the U.S.

So that is why I'm saying there is nothing they can do but prove it was a fault of the oil at time of warranty claim. They can't stick you to it unless they say API certified oil is a requirement and not a recommendation of it being Pennzoil and meeting the spec MS-12633

 

[StevieC]

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying where the manufacturer specifically states API certified motor oils only. But in this case they have left grey area open because their wording isn't specifying exact requirements. It's making recommendation of what to use and what specifications it SHOULD meet.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Their manual doesn't say "Formal Approval" or "API Certified" or >

It says "Recomended" "Meeting Spec MS-12633" Not "Officially meeting spec MS-12633" or something to that effect.


That's where you have to look at the wording. It says in that first bit:

Quote:
The manufacturer recommends the use of Pennzoil Ultra 0w-40 engine or equivalent MOPAR oil meeting the FCA Material Standard MS-12633


Then in the next section under viscosity, that is further clarified via this statement:
Quote:
Use Pennzoil Ultra 0w-40 engine or equivalent MOPAR oil meeting the FCA Material Standard MS-12633

Note the lack of any "recommendation" verbiage there.

Then on the next page:
Quote:
You may use synthetic engine oils provided the recommended oil quality requirements are met


So our earlier selection "recommendation" and viscosity requirement parameters are cemented in this line.


Basically, it sounds like it SHOULD meet SN, and they recommend Pennzoil Ultra 0w-40, but you must use an oil meeting FCA Material Standard MS-12633. That oil "may" be synthetic, but regardless, it MUST meet that MS-12633 standard. At least that's my takeaway from the verbiage.

BMW used similar wording for LL-01, telling people to run BMW engine oil, but ultimately indicating that you could use any oil that met LL-01. Many of the Euro marques maintain formal approval lists and AMSOIL now has products that do appear on them, where they did not in the past. The AMSOIL verbiage relative to that is also significantly clearer.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: turboaccord1
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Beautiful car BTW, and I didn't mean to detract from that with the above post

I am aware that the amsoil is not a formal approval. If I'm not mistaken I saw a couple voa's of the Srt pennzoil stuff and it didn't look to impressive. The additive package looked average and the viscosity was on the lower end of the range for a 40 weight. I know dodge did extensive stress testing of this drivetrain I'm sure with the pennzoil lube but I'm not convinced it's the best oil for the money. Especially for track use. And the amsoil 0w-40 may not be either. I really wish amsoil made dominator In a 40 weight for when I really pound on it.


Yeah, the Pennzoil stuff didn't blow my skirt up either TBH.

 

[StevieC]

Yes and any oil company can say they meet that specification based on their testing against whatever the parameters are in the MS-12633 spec. It doesn't mean that only Valvoline or M1 or whatever oil company can be used simply because they are API certified and Amsoil Signature Series oil is not.

If Amsoil claims that they meet said spec of MS-12633 then it would be "allowed" under this verbiage above, unless they specifically stated API certified motor oils only.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
No one does except it looks like Mopar & Pennzoil but they can't mandate you to use Mopar / Pennzoil or they would have to provide it for free according to laws in the U.S.

So that is why I'm saying there is nothing they can do but prove it was a fault of the oil at time of warranty claim. They can't stick you to it unless they say API certified oil is a requirement and not a recommendation of it being Pennzoil and meeting the spec MS-12633


Wrong.

That's why the language is written the way it is.

The manufacturer cannot require you to use their own parts or products as per MM regulation. They CAN however require you to use a product that meets a specific material standard or specification. It is well within their rights to guarantee a specific quality for a replacement or service part, and the Euro marques have been doing it forever.

That's why I'm a bit miffed about this relationship between SOPUS and Chrysler. SOPUS isn't Chrysler, so the MM part about "own parts" doesn't factor in here, and the fact that the only approved lubricant happens to be the SOPUS one at this point seems a bit dirty.

 

[StevieC]

Any oil company can say they meet that specification based on their testing against whatever the parameters are in the MS-12633 spec. It doesn't mean that only Valvoline or M1 or whatever oil company can be used simply because they are API certified and Amsoil Signature Series oil is not.

If Amsoil claims that they meet said spec of MS-12633 then it would be "allowed" under this verbiage above, unless they specifically stated API certified motor oils only.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
If Amsoil claims that they meet said spec of MS-12633

But Amsoil does not claim that they meet it.

 

[69GTX]

Hellcat blog UOA's

That's one thread on UOA's. There are others over there. There's a VOA as well a couple of posts down.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: StevieC
If Amsoil claims that they meet said spec of MS-12633

But Amsoil does not claim that they meet it.


They do I posted a link above.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf (PAGE 4)

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Yes and any oil company can say they meet that specification based on their testing against whatever the parameters are in the MS-12633 spec.


No, there are parameters that define the required testing for a "meets" approval, which is why AMSOIL recommends for API SN for example, not "meets" it, whilst their lower tier products are actually API SN approved. The Ford approvals are the same way, falling under the "meets" category, but there is an actual testing protocol in place for them.

I think the difference between "meets requirements" and "builder approvals" is where the testing is done. The first can be done, via an approved protocol, by the blender themselves, whilst the latter is done by the manufacturer. They both have formal processes to them and both are official titles, it is where the testing is done that sets them apart.

You see all three languages on Mobil 1 5w-30 for example:


Meets, builder approvals and "Recommended for".

You'll note the distinct lack of Chrysler approvals under the "meets" heading. When asked about it Mobil's response was that it was a "multi year test" and that they had "chosen not to pursue it at this time". Most of us on here at the time assumed it was simply due to the contract being given to SOPUS as part of the FIAT acquisition, as no Mobil 1 product since has carried a Chrysler approval.

 

[StevieC]

They don't call that out in the owners manual so builders approval would be fine. That's what I'm saying... They need to say "APPROVED" or say "API CERTIFIED" and they clearly do not.

I get what you are saying, but in this instance Chrysler has left it not tied down.

Lawyers have argued over far less technicalities and one could argue if you have deep pockets you would win in this instance.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: StevieC
If Amsoil claims that they meet said spec of MS-12633

But Amsoil does not claim that they meet it.


They do I posted a link above.


They don't. By that same metric it meets SN and SM, which we know it doesn't (no donut). That is "recommended for" language in that PDF and applies to the entire Signature Series lineup.

 

[StevieC]

Read what Amsoil wrote. They are telling you to use what oil for what specification. I never said Amsoil was approved by the donut foundation (API) for this specification.

 

[StevieC]

What I am saying is that Chrysler didn't say to specifically use Donut Foundation (API) certified oils only. Only oils meeting the spec MS-12633 which shown above 0w40 (AZF) meets according to Amsoil. They are only recommending the use of Pennzoil / Mopar oils

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
They don't call that out in the owners manual so builders approval would be fine. That's what I'm saying... They need to say "APPROVED" or say "API CERTIFIED" and they clearly do not.

I get what you are saying, but in this instance Chrysler has left it not tied down.

Lawyers have argued over far less technicalities and one could argue if you have deep pockets you would win in this instance.


I'm not sure what you are saying? They do NOT have a former builder approval; the product is NOT formally certified by Chrysler (or Ford, or anybody else mentioned in the linked PDF).

The API point is insignificant, as the real requirement here is for MS-12633, as all big box 0w-40's on the market are API SN at this point (including Mobil 1 FS 0w-40), but Mobil's oil selector will NOT tell you to use M1 FS 0w-40 in Chrysler applications:




It's like LL-01 or the Mercedes or VW approvals which, for the longest time, were in the same boat. But AMSOIL does actually have Euro approved oils now that show up on those manufacturer's approval lists. For the case of both Ford's 5w-50 spec and the Chrysler 0w-40 one however, the products are not formally approved.