so I Googled what is the universe expanding into.

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: fdcg27

It's not that everything comes down to math, since all of these things including music existed long before math did.
Math only provides a simple way of modeling things.


But you have to be proficient in mathematics in order to get a good grasp of the Physics.


Not so sure about this, since the physics existed long before there were any men around to try to model it using math.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: fdcg27

It's not that everything comes down to math, since all of these things including music existed long before math did.
Math only provides a simple way of modeling things.


But you have to be proficient in mathematics in order to get a good grasp of the Physics.


Not so sure about this, since the physics existed long before there were any men around to try to model it using math.

Yeah, but physics back then was... not very sophisticated or deep compared to physics now.

 

[jaj]

A biologist, a chemist, a physicist and a mathematician were sitting in a bar having a beer at the end of a tough day at the campus.

The biologist says "Man, studying living things is just so fascinating, it's amazing how it all works!"

The chemist chuckles to himself and says "You realize, don't you, that biology is merely applied chemistry?".

The physicist, not to be outdone, leans in and says "Well, that's great, but chemistry is just applied physics."

The mathematician leans back, smiles and says "I love you guys and I'm glad to be of service - after all, physics is a great example of applied mathematics".

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
It's not that everything comes down to math, since all of these things including music existed long before math did.
Math only provides a simple way of modeling things.

Right, but you could look at it as illustrating the common denominator that apparently underlies everything. So music is mathematical as is physics and chemistry, along with everything else.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

But you have to be proficient in mathematics in order to get a good grasp of the Physics.


Not so sure about this, since the physics existed long before there were any men around to try to model it using math.


Maybe you would do well by reading up on the History of Physics, such as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_physics

There was a co-development of Physics and Mathematics because without mathematics you had a tough time describing the physics, and as physics developed it prompted the further development of higher mathematics, such as the Calculus by Newton and Leibniz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_calculus


What I see here is people seem to be reading some of the more popular generalizations of science, cosmology, and physics, and coming away with a view that is not what real science entails.

 

[Schmoe]

Let's talk alien life.....exist or doesn't exist? I'm with Carl Sagan on this....with so many planets "out" there...you can't sit here and tell me that we are the only biological organisms? Now put all that applied mathematics into chemistry and biology that a bunch of ya'll have mentioned, it even seems more likely that there is life out there. Ancient Alien show really raises some suspicion.

 

[MolaKule]

All I have seen so far are innuendos by author's wanting to sell a book and then getting on TV to make more unsubstantiated conjectures and claims.

Biologist Christian De Duve has said, "Life is an obligatory manifestation of matter...[Its] spontaneous emergence [was] inevitable under the conditions of that existed on the prebiotic earth. [it is] bound to occur similarly wherever and whenever similar conditons obtain...There should be plenty of such sites, perhaps as many as one million per galaxy...the universe is awash with life." (See: American Scientist 83(5) (1995))

This statement is not supported by a single experimental result and what he has said here is based entirely upon his ideology. This is what he believes and not what he knows.

So I think you can see here from the many comments, so much of this theory is based on beliefs of what happened, and NOT on what we really know.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Let's talk alien life.....exist or doesn't exist? I'm with Carl Sagan on this....with so many planets "out" there...you can't sit here and tell me that we are the only biological organisms? Now put all that applied mathematics into chemistry and biology that a bunch of ya'll have mentioned, it even seems more likely that there is life out there. Ancient Alien show really raises some suspicion.


Speculation. May or may not. Just don't have any proof that they exist. Maybe they're 10k light years away and by the time they noticed we're around, it could be 20k plus years from now. Space seems pretty empty of life that would be noticeable though. You'd think that some civilization would build a Dyson's sphere/swarm, but if you search for alien mega structure, the one candidate who's light is dimming may just something else that's not fully understood yet.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
We try get through by Chapter 19 for the first semester, so Quantum Mechanics coverage is pretty thorough.

I should take a look, out of curiosity's sake.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
But you have to be proficient in mathematics in order to get a good grasp of the Physics.

Yes, unless you like a bunch of hand waving.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What I see here is people seem to be reading some of the more popular generalizations of science, cosmology, and physics, and coming away with a view that is not what real science entails.

Yes, the hand waving again. People think there's way more substance in these Discovery Channel documentaries than there really is.

I always recommend someone work through the Feynman Lectures, rather than a Brief History in Time. The former is a real foundational background; the latter is popular science.

Schmoe: The Ancient Aliens people would be well served to start with the Feynman Lectures. I love how that almost every "authority" on that show (and the similar ones) have no technical background whatsoever, yet lecture how there's no way we're at the technical level we're at. The only ones with significant scientific backgrounds are John Brandenburg and Stanton Friedman, and they're either nuts or trolling, and I haven't figured out which. With respect to the crazy hair guy, there certainly is a possibility of life elsewhere. I'm surprised he hasn't broken his legs multiple times though with those horrible leaps in logic he makes.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Not so sure about this, since the physics existed long before there were any men around to try to model it using math.

Certainly, but look how horrible wrong some of the ideas were without certain advancements in math. It's rather hard to describe a lot of what seems to be fairly basic stuff without calculus.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
One of the text's we teach from is Engle and Reid's Physical Chemistry.

Yes, I went and looked. It's certainly more thorough than I thought, all around!

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Schmoe: The Ancient Aliens people would be well served to start with the Feynman Lectures. I love how that almost every "authority" on that show (and the similar ones) have no technical background whatsoever, yet lecture how there's no way we're at the technical level we're at. The only ones with significant scientific backgrounds are John Brandenburg and Stanton Friedman, and they're either nuts or trolling, and I haven't figured out which. With respect to the crazy hair guy, there certainly is a possibility of life elsewhere. I'm surprised he hasn't broken his legs multiple times though with those horrible leaps in logic he makes.


The crazy hair guy reminds of the quote from Lewis Carroll. He saying about 6 impossible things a minute.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Not so sure about this, since the physics existed long before there were any men around to try to model it using math.

Certainly, but look how horrible wrong some of the ideas were without certain advancements in math. It's rather hard to describe a lot of what seems to be fairly basic stuff without calculus.


I have to cringe since it's been so many years since I've actually used calculus.
I'm just an accounting/finance guy and we use no real math, only arithmetic and we mostly use databases and build spreadsheets for that.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

But you have to be proficient in mathematics in order to get a good grasp of the Physics.


Not so sure about this, since the physics existed long before there were any men around to try to model it using math.


Maybe you would do well by reading up on the History of Physics, such as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_physics

There was a co-development of Physics and Mathematics because without mathematics you had a tough time describing the physics, and as physics developed it prompted the further development of higher mathematics, such as the Calculus by Newton and Leibniz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_calculus


What I see here is people seem to be reading some of the more popular generalizations of science, cosmology, and physics, and coming away with a view that is not what real science entails.


Math is no more and no less than a modeling tool.
I think that the intuitive insight leading to a theory has to come before math can be used to model it.
Math is a descriptor and not a precursor of thought.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

I have to cringe since it's been so many years since I've actually used calculus.

Calculus won't cut it in this area

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Math is no more and no less than a modeling tool.
I think that the intuitive insight leading to a theory has to come before math can be used to model it.
Math is a descriptor and not a precursor of thought.


This is a very good point. Math can be used to model just about anything, real and fictional. The real things are not a problem because we can do the math and then go out and prove or disprove it through experimentation.

The problem arises with things that cannot be measured or tested, like dark matter. The math didn't make sense so we invented dark matter. Now that the math makes sense, it is used as proof that dark matter truly exists, the fact that there is no way to measure, test or even see it is just a small detail not worth paying attention to.

Video games run on math, heck they must be real. I mean, how can they not be? Each algorithm, each equation checks itself against the system of constrains and returns the same value or set of values each time.

If we can prove, using nothing more than math, that dark matter exists, then a world created on a computer is no less real than the one we live in. It may even be one of the parallel universes that are so popular these days. lol.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Math is no more and no less than a modeling tool.
I think that the intuitive insight leading to a theory has to come before math can be used to model it.
Math is a descriptor and not a precursor of thought.


This is a very good point. Math can be used to model just about anything, real and fictional. The real things are not a problem because we can do the math and then go out and prove or disprove it through experimentation.

The problem arises with things that cannot be measured or tested, like dark matter. The math didn't make sense so we invented dark matter. Now that the math makes sense, it is used as proof that dark matter truly exists, the fact that there is no way to measure, test or even see it is just a small detail not worth paying attention to.

Video games run on math, heck they must be real. I mean, how can they not be? Each algorithm, each equation checks itself against the system of constrains and returns the same value or set of values each time.

If we can prove, using nothing more than math, that dark matter exists, then a world created on a computer is no less real than the one we live in. It may even be one of the parallel universes that are so popular these days. lol.

AFAIK, this is a slight but significant misrepresentation of the case for dark matter.

"Dark matter" is basically defined as "whatever is causing the apparent gravitational effects that we don't think observable matter can account for." By that definition, it sure does seem to exist -- not merely as a matter of making the math work, but as a matter of accounting for what we see. Where the mathematical "proof" comes in is defining or speculating about the OTHER features it must have. Those other features are the ones that largely (entirely?) have yet to be demonstrated.

 

[Schmoe]

The thing about Ancient Aliens is that they just give out some ideas. I no where near consider them the experts. But, they bring up some theories and thoughts that make you go hmmmmmm. The sizes of monuments and the complexity of some of the stuff they discover or bring to light really makes you think how it could be done with, up to now, what limited technology they had. Sure slaves could have been brought in to build the temples in Egypt or Mexico, but funny they all have the same basic structure. This is all a coincidence? I think not. Another thing I've thought needed explaining was that right before WWII, our technology was basically buttkiss. We just invented the radio, and that wasn't all that good. Just started making good alloy metals. WWII happens and holy cow batman....all of a sudden we got radar, lasers, computers, etc. etc. When was Roswell? No, I don't wear a tin hat, but these are things that make, at least me, go hmmmm. Was watching a PBS show on Voyager last night and realized that space isn't the problem with travel, it's time. Time is consistent thoughout the universe, nothing goes past the speed of light. Voyager in 2012, just left our solar system and now traveling through the void of space. Think about it...going 10 miles a second for the next 100's of years and traveling past absolute nothing. Nothing. What is nothing? What is the empty void of space. Did matter "create" this when it collided with other matter? Andromeda is set to collide with the Milky Way in umpteen ka-million years, but it's so vast, nothing will likely ever actually "boom". Sorry for the rant, but this stuff has interested me in years and finally found a bunch of folks that have scientific knowledge and shed some light on what is actually going on.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
The thing about Ancient Aliens is that they just give out some ideas. I no where near consider them the experts. But, they bring up some theories and thoughts that make you go hmmmmmm. The sizes of monuments and the complexity of some of the stuff they discover or bring to light really makes you think how it could be done with, up to now, what limited technology they had. Sure slaves could have been brought in to build the temples in Egypt or Mexico, but funny they all have the same basic structure. This is all a coincidence? I think not. Another thing I've thought needed explaining was that right before WWII, our technology was basically buttkiss. We just invented the radio, and that wasn't all that good. Just started making good alloy metals. WWII happens and holy cow batman....all of a sudden we got radar, lasers, computers, etc. etc. When was Roswell? No, I don't wear a tin hat, but these are things that make, at least me, go hmmmm. Was watching a PBS show on Voyager last night and realized that space isn't the problem with travel, it's time. Time is consistent thoughout the universe, nothing goes past the speed of light. Voyager in 2012, just left our solar system and now traveling through the void of space. Think about it...going 10 miles a second for the next 100's of years and traveling past absolute nothing. Nothing. What is nothing? What is the empty void of space. Did matter "create" this when it collided with other matter? Andromeda is set to collide with the Milky Way in umpteen ka-million years, but it's so vast, nothing will likely ever actually "boom". Sorry for the rant, but this stuff has interested me in years and finally found a bunch of folks that have scientific knowledge and shed some light on what is actually going on.
"Nothing" is the real absence of something. Let us now give thanks for those who developed the concept of 0 (zero). Banned in the Middle Ages as the work of the devil, but preserved by the Arab world to make the work of mathematicians and scientist easier.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

"Nothing" is the absence of a real something. We are fortunate that reason won out over of medieval superstition and ignorance and the concept of zero (0) was preserved. The idea of zero was once declared heretical and the work of the devil. It's easier to be naughty than nice.