2018 Chevy Silverado or 2018 Toyota 4 Runner

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Your comparing two different vehicles as is the OP. "Beats it in every category" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


Please deposit a quarter into my paypal account. Thank you.

 

[A_A_G]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Your comparing two different vehicles as is the OP. "Beats it in every category" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


I'm comparing the two vehicles the OP is cross shopping. It makes perfect sense why I said the 4runner is overrated because for the same money when you can get a Silverado.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/193970-toyota-4runner-frame-recall-campaign.html


Your point?

Because somebody owned an old and neglected 4Runner that rusted, years after any manufacturer rust warranty had long since expired, they should be somehow compensated?

I noticed in that linked thread a rotted away to the point of failure Ford Explorer frame too.


Frame rot is a known issue with 3rd gen 4Runners, the issue isn't isolated to Dana frames.


Correction: It is a known issue on ALL vehicles that are operated in highly corrosive environments, and simultaneously neglected by their owners.

I worked on consumer vehicles at one point in time (and have many friends that still do). ALL vehicles made of steel will rust if neglected in a highly corrosive environment.

In that thread you have someone that neglected their vehicle. The vehicle is AT LEAST 13 years old at the time that thread was created. Well beyond any manufacturers corrosion warranty.

Perhaps you noticed the Ford Explorer frame pictured in that thread, which had rotted away to the point of failure. No doubt it's owner neglected to keep it clean when operated in a highly corrosive environment, as is spelled out in EVERY owners manual I've ever seen.

Bottom line: 4Runner's are no more prone to rust than any other make or model. What made the improperly made Dana Frames under Tacomas, Tundras, and Sequoias unique, is that they corroded much more quickly than a properly made frame. Hence the lawsuit which Toyota won, and the frame replacement for customers affected.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/193970-toyota-4runner-frame-recall-campaign.html


Your point?

Because somebody owned an old and neglected 4Runner that rusted, years after any manufacturer rust warranty had long since expired, they should be somehow compensated?

I noticed in that linked thread a rotted away to the point of failure Ford Explorer frame too.


Frame rot is a known issue with 3rd gen 4Runners, the issue isn't isolated to Dana frames.


Correction: It is a known issue on ALL vehicles that are operated in highly corrosive environments, and simultaneously neglected by their owners.

I worked on consumer vehicles at one point in time (and have many friends that still do). ALL vehicles made of steel will rust if neglected in a highly corrosive environment.

In that thread you have someone that neglected their vehicle. The vehicle is AT LEAST 13 years old at the time that thread was created. Well beyond any manufacturers corrosion warranty.

Perhaps you noticed the Ford Explorer frame pictured in that thread, which had rotted away to the point of failure. No doubt it's owner neglected to keep it clean when operated in a highly corrosive environment, as is spelled out in EVERY owners manual I've ever seen.

Bottom line: 4Runner's are no more prone to rust than any other make or model. What made the improperly made Dana Frames under Tacomas, Tundras, and Sequoias unique, is that they corroded much more quickly than a properly made frame. Hence the lawsuit which Toyota won, and the frame replacement for customers affected.


There is a difference between frames failing from long term exposure to road salts and lack of maintenance and 4Runners having leaf spring hangers tearing off of the frame due to corrosion-induced frame rail perforation in the Southeast.

Toyota frame issues are not isolated to Dana produced frames.
The failure rate of the Dana frames may have been statically more significant, but Toyota frame corrosion has been a long term issue.

Bottom line: Japanese produced 3rd gen 4Runner frames are more prone to corrosion induced frame failure than many other makes/models produced in the same era.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

There is a difference between frames failing from long term exposure to road salts and lack of maintenance and 4Runners having leaf spring hangers tearing off of the frame due to corrosion-induced frame rail perforation in the Southeast.

Toyota frame issues are not isolated to Dana produced frames.
The failure rate of the Dana frames may have been statically more significant, but Toyota frame corrosion has been a long term issue.

Bottom line: Japanese produced 3rd gen 4Runner frames are more prone to corrosion induced frame failure than many other makes/models produced in the same era.



3rd gen 4Runners DON'T HAVE leaf springs..

Bottom line: You clearly have an agenda, and are willing to create a false narrative to push that agenda.

That indisputable revelation makes discussing this further a waste of my time.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

There is a difference between frames failing from long term exposure to road salts and lack of maintenance and 4Runners having leaf spring hangers tearing off of the frame due to corrosion-induced frame rail perforation in the Southeast.

Toyota frame issues are not isolated to Dana produced frames.
The failure rate of the Dana frames may have been statically more significant, but Toyota frame corrosion has been a long term issue.

Bottom line: Japanese produced 3rd gen 4Runner frames are more prone to corrosion induced frame failure than many other makes/models produced in the same era.



3rd gen 4Runners DON'T HAVE leaf springs..

Bottom line: You clearly have an agenda, and are willing to create a false narrative to push that agenda.

That indisputable revelation makes discussing this further a waste of my time.



You're right, it's the rear locating/control arm shackle mounts I was thinking of.
I've seen so many of these frames rotted out around these shackles and around the gas tank it isn't even funny.

Road salt doesn't exist in my area.

You are building a strawman here, this is the 2nd time in 2 threads I've seen you resort to logical fallacy to pursue a talking point.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

There is a difference between frames failing from long term exposure to road salts and lack of maintenance and 4Runners having leaf spring hangers tearing off of the frame due to corrosion-induced frame rail perforation in the Southeast.

Toyota frame issues are not isolated to Dana produced frames.
The failure rate of the Dana frames may have been statically more significant, but Toyota frame corrosion has been a long term issue.

Bottom line: Japanese produced 3rd gen 4Runner frames are more prone to corrosion induced frame failure than many other makes/models produced in the same era.



3rd gen 4Runners DON'T HAVE leaf springs..

Bottom line: You clearly have an agenda, and are willing to create a false narrative to push that agenda.

That indisputable revelation makes discussing this further a waste of my time.



You're right, it's the rear locating/control arm shackle mounts I was thinking of.
I've seen so many of these frames rotted out around these shackles and around the gas tank it isn't even funny.

Road salt doesn't exist in my area.

You are building a strawman here, this is the 2nd time in 2 threads I've seen you resort to logical fallacy to pursue a talking point.






So it's clear you have no clue as to what you're talking about. You don't have a 4Runner, and as you said, "Road salt doesn't exist in my area."
My oldest vehicle is a 3rd gen 4Runner. I've owned it since new, and it has spent EVERY winter on heavily salted roads. All it's used for these days is winter driving on salted roads, and fourwheeling. Zero rust on the body, frame or undercarriage.

I have witnessed all makes and models that were the same age, (witness the rotted out Ford Explorer in your link) that have long since rusted away, and were hauled off for scrape. The difference? they were neglected by their owners.

There's really nothing more to say.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: A_A_G
Originally Posted By: CKN
Your comparing two different vehicles as is the OP. "Beats it in every category" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


I'm comparing the two vehicles the OP is cross shopping. It makes perfect sense why I said the 4runner is overrated because for the same money when you can get a Silverado.



Again-you can't compare one to the other based on price. They are two different vehicles. Apparently-you can't fathom that comparing two classes of vehicles-straight across on price is not equitable. It's like comparing a two door sports car-to a 4 door luxury vehicle-when they both cost the same. The 4Runner is one capable off road vehicle. The Silverado is not. Both will seat 4 comfortable-five not as comfortable. The 4Runner is more maneuverable, the Silverado has a Turning radius of a small house (remember-I own one.) The 4Runner will fit in to a two car garage-The Silverado may fit but it's tight in a STANDARD garage.

I have owned a 4Runner-I currently own a Sierra Crew Cab with standard bed.

 

[4WD]

Honda Civic
Honda Accord
Chevrolet Impala
Kia Sportage
Honda Pilot
Chevrolet Tahoe
Chrysler Pacifica
Ford F-150
Toyota Prius
Porsche 718
Audi A4
Mercedes-Benz GLC

So, Toyota rightfully is still on the list … but does not dominate the KBB top picks … additionally ~ the popularity of SK units is not proportional … I have long said folks are lured to the cheap price and casino style warranty … yeah, I say it’s dumping in progress. ~ but so far the legal cases have focused on SK appliances … (not appliances in the sense edyvw says about these makes, but washers etc) …

 

[dishdude]

The poor OP probably abandoned this thread on page 2.

 

[4WD]

Yeah … but teachers like to read plenty before putting the grade in the corner …
… in this case the bottom right corner for quite a few G …

 

[zfasts03]

I'm reading and researching and still deciding. In the meanwhile my `97 Rusty Ram is nickel and dime n me.

Lets see:
- Sat Valve cover gaskets
- 2 cans of R134A
- Fluid film 2 can, underside, inside door and inside sills

Just ordered horns, soon to need full exhaust, battery is 8 years old, dash is cracked

Whatever, it runs great!

 

[xxch4osxx]

Originally Posted By: zfasts03
I'm reading and researching and still deciding. In the meanwhile my `97 Rusty Ram is nickel and dime n me.

Lets see:
- Sat Valve cover gaskets
- 2 cans of R134A
- Fluid film 2 can, underside, inside door and inside sills

Just ordered horns, soon to need full exhaust, battery is 8 years old, dash is cracked

Whatever, it runs great!
What kind of fuel milage is that 5.9 giving you? I have heard they are quite thirsty.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

There is a difference between frames failing from long term exposure to road salts and lack of maintenance and 4Runners having leaf spring hangers tearing off of the frame due to corrosion-induced frame rail perforation in the Southeast.

Toyota frame issues are not isolated to Dana produced frames.
The failure rate of the Dana frames may have been statically more significant, but Toyota frame corrosion has been a long term issue.

Bottom line: Japanese produced 3rd gen 4Runner frames are more prone to corrosion induced frame failure than many other makes/models produced in the same era.



3rd gen 4Runners DON'T HAVE leaf springs..

Bottom line: You clearly have an agenda, and are willing to create a false narrative to push that agenda.

That indisputable revelation makes discussing this further a waste of my time.



You're right, it's the rear locating/control arm shackle mounts I was thinking of.
I've seen so many of these frames rotted out around these shackles and around the gas tank it isn't even funny.

Road salt doesn't exist in my area.

You are building a strawman here, this is the 2nd time in 2 threads I've seen you resort to logical fallacy to pursue a talking point.






So it's clear you have no clue as to what you're talking about. You don't have a 4Runner, and as you said, "Road salt doesn't exist in my area."
My oldest vehicle is a 3rd gen 4Runner. I've owned it since new, and it has spent EVERY winter on heavily salted roads. All it's used for these days is winter driving on salted roads, and fourwheeling. Zero rust on the body, frame or undercarriage.

I have witnessed all makes and models that were the same age, (witness the rotted out Ford Explorer in your link) that have long since rusted away, and were hauled off for scrape. The difference? they were neglected by their owners.

There's really nothing more to say.


Precisely, road salt doesn't exist in my area, and I've still seen 3rd gen 4Runners require frame repair in the areas I mentioned.
Whether you want to acknowledge or aware these frames are generally more rust prone than their domestic counterparts is irrelevant to me, it is a fairly widely known issue.

 

[zfasts03]

10-12 mpg around town, best I have every seen was 14 on the highway while not exceeding 60 mph.

the 5.9 is a 4x4 with 3.92 gears and P265/75R16 AT tires

Bought it new in 1997 when gas was about 88 cents a gallon

 

[xxch4osxx]

Originally Posted By: zfasts03
10-12 mpg around town, best I have every seen was 14 on the highway while not exceeding 60 mph.

the 5.9 is a 4x4 with 3.92 gears and P265/75R16 AT tires

Bought it new in 1997 when gas was about 88 cents a gallon
Ya, that's not all that great at today's prices!

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Precisely, road salt doesn't exist in my area, and I've still seen 3rd gen 4Runners require frame repair in the areas I mentioned.
Whether you want to acknowledge or aware these frames are generally more rust prone than their domestic counterparts is irrelevant to me, it is a fairly widely known issue.


No, they aren't more rust prone than domestic vehicles. Only the Toyota's with improperly made Dana Corp frames were more rust prone.

I know, I worked on all of the brands, and have friends that still do. The biggest difference is that a Ford explorer of the same vintage is likely on it's third transmission rebuild, and has already rusted out and been hauled to the junkyard. Did you see the rotted out Ford Explorer in your own link?

Meanwhile, the old Toyota that has been neglected as far as washing it in a corrosive environment, is still running fine on it's original drivetrain.

So comparing two vehicles of the same vintage that have been neglected:

Explorer = hauled off to the junkyard.

4Runner = people wanting to fix it because it still runs fine.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Precisely, road salt doesn't exist in my area, and I've still seen 3rd gen 4Runners require frame repair in the areas I mentioned.
Whether you want to acknowledge or aware these frames are generally more rust prone than their domestic counterparts is irrelevant to me, it is a fairly widely known issue.


No, they aren't more rust prone than domestic vehicles. Only the Toyota's with improperly made Dana Corp frames were more rust prone.

I know, I worked on all of the brands, and have friends that still do. The biggest difference is that a Ford explorer of the same vintage is likely on it's third transmission rebuild, and has already rusted out and been hauled to the junkyard. Did you see the rotted out Ford Explorer in your own link?

Meanwhile, the old Toyota that has been neglected as far as washing it in a corrosive environment, is still running fine on it's original drivetrain.

So comparing two vehicles of the same vintage that have been neglected:

Explorer = hauled off to the junkyard.

4Runner = people wanting to fix it because it still runs fine.


Toyota built the vehicle around the frame Dana provided, it was up to them to confirm the frames provided met the spec. Apparently they did, since they stuck the Toyota T on millions of them. If it were a small number of vehicles maybe you'd have something, but we're talking millions of rust buckets built by Toyota.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Precisely, road salt doesn't exist in my area, and I've still seen 3rd gen 4Runners require frame repair in the areas I mentioned.
Whether you want to acknowledge or aware these frames are generally more rust prone than their domestic counterparts is irrelevant to me, it is a fairly widely known issue.


No, they aren't more rust prone than domestic vehicles. Only the Toyota's with improperly made Dana Corp frames were more rust prone.

I know, I worked on all of the brands, and have friends that still do. The biggest difference is that a Ford explorer of the same vintage is likely on it's third transmission rebuild, and has already rusted out and been hauled to the junkyard. Did you see the rotted out Ford Explorer in your own link?

Meanwhile, the old Toyota that has been neglected as far as washing it in a corrosive environment, is still running fine on it's original drivetrain.

So comparing two vehicles of the same vintage that have been neglected:

Explorer = hauled off to the junkyard.

4Runner = people wanting to fix it because it still runs fine.


Toyota built the vehicle around the frame Dana provided, it was up to them to confirm the frames provided met the spec. Apparently they did, since they stuck the Toyota T on millions of them. If it were a small number of vehicles maybe you'd have something, but we're talking millions of rust buckets built by Toyota.


It was up to Toyota to confirm that Dana Corp was making the frames properly. For whatever reason, Toyota trusted Dana Corp to keep their word, and make the frames properly. When the fact that the Dana Corp frames were made improperly came to light, Toyota rectified the situation. They replaced a lot of frames, and won a multi-million dollar lawsuit against Dana Corp.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted By: 02SE

It was up to Toyota to confirm that Dana Corp was making the frames properly. For whatever reason, Toyota trusted Dana Corp to keep their word, and make the frames properly. When the fact that the Dana Corp frames were made improperly came to light, Toyota rectified the situation. They replaced a lot of frames, and won a multi-million dollar lawsuit against Dana Corp.


They only agreed to replace the frames after a number of class action lawsuits. All quality manufacturers randomly sample supplier provided material to confirm it meets spec. This happened for over a decade and affected millions of vehicles.