Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Buying blindly because of brand history is stupid. To think that a 2017 Ford truck will be the same as a 1980s truck is silly. Brand loyalty gets a lot of people, and why? The brand is not loyal to you. Find the vehicle that has the options and features you like, and buy that one.

There are many vehicles that I have been attracted to, only to test drive them and walk away with different thoughts.


Before I bought my CPO M235i I also considered a Camaro SS 1LE, a Challenger SRT8, a 2013 Boss 302, a 2016 Mustang GT Premium w/Performance Package, a Lotus Elise, a 370Z NISMO, a Cayman S, and a WRX STI. However, when all was said and done the 2er's combination of compact size, ample acceleration, decent handling, RWD, exceptional fuel economy, and a usable rear seat won out.
It also doesn't hurt that my local BMW dealer's service department doesn't try to gouge me every time I walk in the door and also doesn't give me a hassle over tracking the car.
Will my next car be a BMW? We'll see...

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: StevieC

Further last I checked those "Foreign" manufacturers are employing people in factories here.

I'm going to stop here.

Yup.

Toyota = factories in USA
Honda = factories in USA
BMW = factories in USA
Mercedes-Benz = factories in the USA



That's overly simplistic.
Assembly is just one part of the automotive manufacturing process.

Where was the R&D money spent, where do profits go, where are the majority of taxes paid?

There is zero doubt that US-based manufacturers spend exponentially more R&D money in the US, the last time I checked (which has been several years) Ford and GM were only outspent by Pfizer in US-based R&D.
There are billions upon billions of dollars beings spent in the auto industry that has little to do with actually bolting the cars together.

 

[StevieC]

Ok then, don't forget the constant corporate welfare offered to these corporations and the massive bailouts. Where does that factor in?

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Ok then, don't forget the constant corporate welfare offered to these corporations and the massive bailouts. Where does that factor in?

Import manufacturers also get massive tax breaks as incentives to build factories here.

There's one US manufacturer that wasn't bailed out, btw.
Be forewarned, if you mention the ATVM loan, Nissan partook in the same program.

 

[4WD]

You could expand that to the welfare paid if a foreign company builds a factory outside of my town …
It’s quickly called an investment … well that’s like a rental car fee not being called a tax … all a government can truly deal in is taxes or borrowing money since they are always broke.
This discussion never ends … but I just don’t like endless growing trade deficits ~ so I avoid products from countries who only buy their stuff. SK for example …

 

[StevieC]

A one time investment is different than constant investment through. We have been supporting the big 3 for decades and decades.

 

[4WD]

A number of reports indicate it was one of the few times Washington made money on anything they didn’t just take…

 

[StevieC]

Add up all the cheques they have written over the decades. I guarantee you they didn't make money.

 

[4WD]

What are they? Most know of one?

 

[Ben99GT]

The US lost somewhere along the lines of $12 billion on the GM/GMAC bailout after the "new" GM IPO stock underperformance.
They broke even on Chrysler.
Ford is still paying the price for not going through a bailout, carrying a comparatively heavy debt load because they didn't seek a taxpayer funded bankruptcy.

I'm sure the US will be back in the black after GM pays 10 years or so of income taxes.

Where is this constant Big 3 investment and welfare culture you keep mentioning, StevieC?
It was a one time thing, all manufacturers with US assembly plants get massive tax incentives.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The US lost somewhere along the lines of $12 billion on the GM/GMAC bailout after the "new" GM IPO stock underperformance.
They broke even on Chrysler.
Ford is still paying the price for not going through a bailout, carrying a comparatively heavy debt load because they didn't seek a taxpayer funded bankruptcy.

I'm sure the US will be back in the black after GM pays 10 years or so of income taxes.

Where is this constant Big 3 investment and welfare culture you keep mentioning, StevieC?
It was a one time thing, all manufacturers with US assembly plants get massive tax incentives.


Ford didn't take a bailout loan under TARP, but they DID nevertheless take a 5.9 Billion dollar 'loan' from the Federal Government. So whether FORD took a bailout is really a question of semantics.

 

[4WD]

It does not end with cars or country … was in Korea recently and half of my questions could not be answered as there was government intervention in the segment … and they put things on hold to see what company they might be a part of. What’s different in N.A. is everything gets published globally … but the so called “global players” from elsewhere have a different relationship with the press and the oppressed …

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The US lost somewhere along the lines of $12 billion on the GM/GMAC bailout after the "new" GM IPO stock underperformance.
They broke even on Chrysler.
Ford is still paying the price for not going through a bailout, carrying a comparatively heavy debt load because they didn't seek a taxpayer funded bankruptcy.

I'm sure the US will be back in the black after GM pays 10 years or so of income taxes.

Where is this constant Big 3 investment and welfare culture you keep mentioning, StevieC?
It was a one time thing, all manufacturers with US assembly plants get massive tax incentives.


Ford didn't take a bailout loan under TARP, but they DID nevertheless take a 5.9 Billion dollar 'loan' from the Federal Government. So whether FORD took a bailout is really a question of semantics.


That loan was part of the ATVM loan program, Nissan and Fisker also partook.

The bailout was a US funded bankruptcy.
It's not semantics, the ATVM was an incentive program designed to keep green car manufacturing in the US.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The US lost somewhere along the lines of $12 billion on the GM/GMAC bailout after the "new" GM IPO stock underperformance.
They broke even on Chrysler.
Ford is still paying the price for not going through a bailout, carrying a comparatively heavy debt load because they didn't seek a taxpayer funded bankruptcy.

I'm sure the US will be back in the black after GM pays 10 years or so of income taxes.

Where is this constant Big 3 investment and welfare culture you keep mentioning, StevieC?
It was a one time thing, all manufacturers with US assembly plants get massive tax incentives.


Ford didn't take a bailout loan under TARP, but they DID nevertheless take a 5.9 Billion dollar 'loan' from the Federal Government. So whether FORD took a bailout is really a question of semantics.


That loan was part of the ATVM loan program, Nissan and Fisker also partook.

The bailout was a US funded bankruptcy.
It's not semantics, the ATVM was an incentive program designed to keep green car manufacturing in the US.


Exactly.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The US lost somewhere along the lines of $12 billion on the GM/GMAC bailout after the "new" GM IPO stock underperformance.
They broke even on Chrysler.
Ford is still paying the price for not going through a bailout, carrying a comparatively heavy debt load because they didn't seek a taxpayer funded bankruptcy.

I'm sure the US will be back in the black after GM pays 10 years or so of income taxes.

Where is this constant Big 3 investment and welfare culture you keep mentioning, StevieC?
It was a one time thing, all manufacturers with US assembly plants get massive tax incentives.


Ford didn't take a bailout loan under TARP, but they DID nevertheless take a 5.9 Billion dollar 'loan' from the Federal Government. So whether FORD took a bailout is really a question of semantics.


That loan was part of the ATVM loan program, Nissan and Fisker also partook.

The bailout was a US funded bankruptcy.
It's not semantics, the ATVM was an incentive program designed to keep green car manufacturing in the US.


It was still a loan from the Government. Which was the point.

 

[StevieC]

When they can't finance their own businesses because of poor management it's corporate welfare. Plain and simple.

 

[stockrex]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
When they can't finance their own businesses because of poor management it's corporate welfare. Plain and simple.


Err, I would agree, but it is never as plain and simple as that.

Anyway, as an owner who owns ford, chevy, honda, toyota, mazda. I call you tell you that I detest paying premium for anything.

In USA and Canada (somewhat) dealers have their "hot" cars which they will seek premium $$$ for.
I stay away for these.
I bought most of mine brand new and I only bought them when I got around $10k in factory cash.

Now, service and reliability is another thing, everything breaks!

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: stockrex

Now, service and reliability is another thing, everything breaks!


My inlaws had a 1999 CRV drove it 300,000km before it needed anything. (Exception: Oxygen Sensors)

They have a 2009 CRV and so far nothing at all put into it and it's almost 1/2 way to this same point.

My Santa Fe was 300K Miles (535,000km) and only saw alternator, starter, Oxygen sensors and wearable parts like brakes/tires. That's it.

My Mom's 2004 Kia Spectra had only oxygen sensors done to it in 300,000km (180K Miles)

My 2015 Journey with 80,000km (50K Miles) has had 5 safety recalls, blew the alternator in Florida, had the lamp in the second row melt and almost catch on fire, has had numerous problems with the factory remote starter, has had the O2 sensor, coolant sensor and thermostats (has 2 of them) replaced oh and intermittent problems with the A/C and the Bluetooth not connecting which they can't seem to solve.

 

[4WD]

And my BIL went 400k (miles) with two wheel bearings and brake pads … in a Silverado doing truck work …
My 2010 has never seen a dealership … I beat the crud out of it off-road and on …
… passed on a 2007 Chrysler 300 to my son ~ he is at 190k … we did PM on timing belt, brakes, tires …
My two cars are in the 90k’s … plastic valve cover on Cruze and will change the plastic inlet … so fair enough … the Fusion has been a solid car …
The 300 was the last Mopar I bought … seems like a confused company to me …FCA is loaded with vehicles that should just go away (on a Journey to retirement)
They have two good Jeep products and the others drag down the reputation …
… I’d say more than GM and Ford …

The big two remain truck and large SUV companies and when they make a turn around car … it does not sell anyway …
Think they need to thin the product line some more … 2 cars, a CUV, trucks & SUV … were not for CAFE I reckon they would have long ago …

 

[Ben99GT]

High mileage modern cars just aren't uncommon with the right usage profile. That applies to most manufacturers.