Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils?

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
but but, the opinion piece from the Police Mechanics union is emphatic on "must" and "will"


LOL!!!
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
but but, the opinion piece from the Police Mechanics union is emphatic on "must" and "will"


No, not quite. The Chrysler Owners Manual states the exact same thing. You're not very good at this, are you?

https://www.jeep.com/download/pdf/manuals/2016-Grand_Cherokee-OM-3rd.pdf

"NOTE: Vehicles equipped with a 5.7L engine must use SAE 5W-20 oil.
Failure to do so may result in improper operation of the Fuel Saver Technology."
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
but but, the opinion piece from the Police Mechanics union is emphatic on "must" and "will"


No not quite. The Chrysler Owners Manual states the exact same thing. You're not very good at this, are you?

https://www.jeep.com/download/pdf/manuals/2016-Grand_Cherokee-OM-3rd.pdf

"NOTE: Vehicles equipped with a 5.7L engine must use SAE 5W-20 oil.
Failure to do so may result in improper operation of the Fuel Saver Technology."




But that is well contradicted by the entry for the 5.7L in the RAM manual I posted earlier:

full-21028-12607-screen_shot_2017_09_20_at_11.48.17_am.png
 
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: billt460
For example, my 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee is equipped with the 5.7 HEMI V-8. It has both MDS, (Multi Displacement System), and VVT, (Variable Valve Timing). Both require 5W-20 oil that meets or exceeds Chrysler Spec MS-6395 in order to operate properly. If you substitute a heavier weight oil, these systems won't function correctly. And you will have serious warranty issues if something gets damaged, and they can trace the failure to the wrong oil.

Originally Posted By: billt460
VVT and MDS have proven to have issues with higher weight oils. They are designed to operate on a very specific weight of motor oil.


Originally Posted By: zeng
What's the typical operating temperature, and hence typical oil operating pressure of a VVT in action , that a one grade thicker engine oil would not 'function correctly' ?
.... if a VVT not 'function correctly' was established to be 'solely' caused by thicker oil (in oil operating pressure ) ?


VVT requires 8 cSt, or 12 cSt or....
Mechanisms ?

I suppose you are backing off claims that VVT requires only 5W20, are you not ?
 
Originally Posted By: zeng
I suppose you are backing off claims that VVT requires only 5W20, are you not?


Not unless you, or Chrysler, can find a way to lubricate an engine with 2 different oils.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Not unless you, or Chrysler, can find a way to lubricate an engine with 2 different oils.

Thank you for your strawman logics!
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: zeng
I suppose you are backing off claims that VVT requires only 5W20, are you not?


Not unless you, or Chrysler, can find a way to lubricate an engine with 2 different oils.


As I've stated previously...oil viscosity changes with temperature...it's not a dot point specification.

So what's the correct viscosity ?

8, 12, 50, 60, 70 cst when the MDS is activaed at 30C ?

Clearly it's capable of running on Chrysler's 0W/5W40 recommendation.

So where's your "must" and "will" live in the real universe ?
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Fuel economy.

Basically, it's xw20 here and xw40 in other countries..


To be honest I think the most common oil used in the UK is likely to be 5w30.

Most cars I have owned in the last 10/12 years have had 5w30 listed as the preferred oil, even though there may be a a choice of 10w30 or 5w40 and 10w40

But it is true that 5w20 and 0w20 are relatively new to the market, JLR with the V8 engines have used 5w20 and the Ford 1.0 Ecoboost also now use it.

Strangely our little 14 Picanto is specced for 5w20 but the Kia Dealers all use 5w30. Can't say I noticed a difference in Economy when I used 5w20 but it did seem to rev a little easier though was also a little noisier. That car has 5k oil changes by me and a 10k oil change by the Dealer, I shall be doing that this week and going back to 5w20 for the Winter.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I occasionally use Blackstone labs, but most often use Aviation labs (avlabs) for my wear metals check. These guys have the data, and occasionally publish something interesting.

As always, wear rates by brand of oil does not seem to vary much. Wear rates by type of oil is similarly inconclusive. However, one thing does tend to stand out, viscosity. With some engines, a higher than recommended viscosity can result in significantly lower wear rates.

My V8 and Ecoboost Ford trucks all experience significantly lower wear metals on a higher viscosity. In particular, Mobil 1 EP 10W-30 and especially M1, 5W-40 TDT reduce the wear rate per mile vs 5W-20 or 5W-30. Same goes for my Turbo S2000. Wear rates decrease significantly with M1, 15W-50. But at almost 450HP (crankshaft) 407RWHP, and no oil cooler, a robust oil is required.

And again, many engines with timing and/or balancer chains do far better with higher viscosity. Ask the GM warranty department about all the premature balancer chain failures.



So do you think i can safely run T6 5w40 in my 4.8 sierra with no issues? Do you run T6 in your ecoboosts? Im going F150 next time, most likely 3.5EB.
 
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I wonder what the viscosity is of Exxon turbojet 2380, which I recall as being of very thin consistency, but FULL SYNTHETIC? I heard discussion on this board that the 0W20 oils are a higher percentage of real synthetic, so wouldn't these oils perform more effectively in high temps, as are seen in a turbine/hi bypass turbofan engine? If so, then the hi-flow cold start proven capability would lead one to believe that low viscosity synthetic is the way to go.
 
Found you some on eBay...but might be easier to find Mobil products than Exxon these days
 
Originally Posted By: exShuttlemech
I wonder what the viscosity is of Exxon turbojet 2380, which I recall as being of very thin consistency, but FULL SYNTHETIC? I heard discussion on this board that the 0W20 oils are a higher percentage of real synthetic, so wouldn't these oils perform more effectively in high temps, as are seen in a turbine/hi bypass turbofan engine? If so, then the hi-flow cold start proven capability would lead one to believe that low viscosity synthetic is the way to go.

It think it is probably the equivalent of about a 15 grade. It is not something you want in your engine. What a gas turbine needs for oil does not have a whole lot to do with an piston engine needs.
 
Great Pic!
That was the oil that we used on the RR Spey engine and many others. Some also used Mobil (Hijet 254?) which was a much, much, darker oil. The fill point on the engine or CSD usually had a plate or decal to "Use Only Exxon 2380", or whatever oil was recommended.
 
The seller had four at $24.99 each & free shipping … I have a small collection of vintage oil cans but have stopped adding to it …
 
Originally Posted By: exShuttlemech
so wouldn't these oils perform more effectively in high temps, as are seen in a turbine/hi bypass turbofan engine? If so, then the hi-flow cold start proven capability would lead one to believe that low viscosity synthetic is the way to go.


Flow on cold starts is a myth that won't die.

And turbines typically don't have things like big end bearings that are only lubricated for a percentage of each revolution, and have high cyclic loading.
 
New member here but old timer when it comes to hot rods.

Good points how some engines with hyd lifters need a certain light weight oil to work as they should. It was long known that solid lifters worker better at higher rpms but due to emission reasons all engines today use hyd and lately the lifters are used to deactivate a cylinder.

I question thou the "fact" that most engine wear takes place as the engine is first started and as it is warming up. If that was really true, then how come pro racers have their engines torn down and rebuilt after every big race ? The engine's are only run a short time while cold yet they are worn out after a 500 mile race.

Maybe pro racing engines are unfair to compare to passenger car engines but I can think of no other comparison. Certainly saying that most wear to a engine happens when the engine is cold is not correct when it comes to engines used in racing. I would think for those engines, the most wear happens when the engine is cranking out max hp and that is when the engine is fully warmed up.


Long ago it was explain to me that oil prevents metal to metal contact and the thicker the film of oil, the better the oil protection. That too thin of an oil film would breakdown and get squeezed out and the engine would spin a bearing. It was always better to use a thicker oil, like straight 30 or 40 weight vs something like 10w-40 or even 20w-50 when the engine is used in high performance use.

As for today engines being "better" cause they can last 200,000 miles or more. You should also thank OD transmissions and today's better motor oils. The rpm engines run today is far less then it was 50 years ago. New engines spin at under 2,000 rpms for most all of the time running expect ,maybe when taking off from a turn or first getting on the freeway and some drivers rarely spin their engines past 3500 rpms expect once in a great while. 50 years ago, cars could come with rear axle ratios of 3.55 or higher. Even 4.10's were used on some HP muscle cars. Those engines spun at 3,000 to 4,000 on the freeway going 65-75 mph. Motor trend in 1970, I forget the month, March or May 1970 might be it, I know it was in 1970, MT compared two Mopar Roadrunner cars with the 440 engines, one with 3.55 gears vs one with 4.10 gears. They said in print, that the 4.10 gear car was safer on the freeway because it had much better power at speeds of 90 to 110 mph. Those 440 engines were screaming yet the engines lasted sometimes up to 100,000 miles and when they did break it might have been cause the timing chain got loose and jumped a tooth and smacked the valves on the pistons. If the owner would have put a new timing chain on before the chain got loose, those engines would last over 100,000 miles if the oil was changed every 3 months or 3,00 miles. "PS" I still try to change the engine oil with in 3 months, maybe its waste of oil and time but its lot cheaper then a rebuilt engine. All my cars last well over 150,000 miles, the trans might go out before then but not the engine
What oil do I use in mine new engines that call for 5w-30 oil, why 10w-30. I do so cause it think it gives a tad better performance. I'm sure if the engine has cylinder cut off, then I would use a thinner oil so the lifter worked as they should. Really I don't want an engine that shuts off any of its cylinders. Gasoline is "cheap" and is likely to stay that way. My 2014 GM 3.6 engine gets around 25 mpg, that is a far cry of the old muscle car engines that got 10 to 15 mpg. I recall "bragging" how my 1970 340 engine could get 16 mpg if I went 55 mph. The 3.6 engine would get 30 mpg or more, why does it need any more by shutting off when stop or cutting off cylinders, no thanks, GM can keep its 2017 and later 3.6 engines. I want all the cylinders firing at all of the time,less stuff the break later on.

One more thing, there are lots of engines in limited use today that are 50 years old and have been in use--with rebuilts- for 200,000 miles or more. I have a hard time believing today new engines will last that long. The engine blocks are so thin and now made of aluminum. They work good now but they aren't going to be around "forever" like the old cast iron engines.

I'm so happy i got to enjoy real muscle cars and now today's newer stuff. Today cars are much easier to drive, I will say that, maybe too easy, why new drivers today want to text and drive, ugh.
 
Originally Posted By: Skylor
I question thou the "fact" that most engine wear takes place as the engine is first started and as it is warming up. If that was really true, then how come pro racers have their engines torn down and rebuilt after every big race ? The engine's are only run a short time while cold yet they are worn out after a 500 mile race.

Maybe pro racing engines are unfair to compare to passenger car engines but I can think of no other comparison. Certainly saying that most wear to a engine happens when the engine is cold is not correct when it comes to engines used in racing. I would think for those engines, the most wear happens when the engine is cranking out max hp and that is when the engine is fully warmed up.


Why question the fact when 10 minutes with Google and you wouldn't be questioning it.

Race engines, run at the ragged end of their envelope wear out, that's a fact...doesn't mean that's the mechanism for passenger cars.

http://papers.sae.org/600190/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11431-016-6021-6
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Fuel economy.

Basically, it's xw20 here and xw40 in other countries..

If 0W is the part that determines how quickly the oil is distributed through the engine, and the 20,30,40, or 50 determine the viscosity at heat, does it follow that if a car's manual calls for 0W-20 that a 0W-40 is going to be okay? My car just passed the 2 year/20,000 mile period and I am on my own with oil changes.
 
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The 0w- or 5w- part references cold cranking simulator results and the ability to be pumped (i.e. will it be like sucking a milkshake through a straw, or will it be like jello and break into little pieces with air pockets), not the speed of pumping, per se.
 
I had a question about all this 'thinner vs thicker" thing.
If VVT and the others are designed for a specific viscosity, how does it hold water that you can't use a high vis oil such as a Toyota that specs 0w20 and you use a 5w30? Some of these very oils have true "measured" viscoisty that overlap quite a bit and also others are so close that they would fall into the normal distribution of statistics. So, how could this cause a problem?

Now, if you're talking going from 0w20 to 15w40 or 20w50 then maybe so.

Also, if it makes a difference, then why does Toyota specifically say in their manuals that ~"higher viscosity may be used if you encounter heavy duty conditions". It's ok to screw up valve timing on engines that are towing or in high heat?

I don't mind using 0w20, but I do have to wonder if it really matters much. There's an awful lot of cars using thin oil and not blowing up.
 
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