Turbine oil in internal combustian engines?

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: nthach
I know, bumping an old thread. I would imagine an aviation turbine like BP/Eastman 2380 or Mobil Jet Oil II might hold up better in a sludge monster/ring coker Toyota than a PCMO...

Yeah, the oil would hold up just fine.

But the engine would be toast.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: nthach
I know, bumping an old thread. I would imagine an aviation turbine like BP/Eastman 2380 or Mobil Jet Oil II might hold up better in a sludge monster/ring coker Toyota than a PCMO...

Not a good idea. Much too thin (5 cSt @ 100°C), no detergents, no EP, no dispersants, no anti-rust, and too much phosphorus.

Tom NJ

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: nthach
I know, bumping an old thread. I would imagine an aviation turbine like BP/Eastman 2380 or Mobil Jet Oil II might hold up better in a sludge monster/ring coker Toyota than a PCMO...

Not a good idea. Much too thin (5 cSt @ 100°C), no detergents, no EP, no dispersants, no anti-rust, and too much phosphorus.

Tom NJ


Correct, 2380 is too thin, it's considerably thinner than even the newest 0W-16 oils and possibly thinner than the newest 0W-8 oils. I work with 2380 and it is clearly very thin. It works well in many turbine engines, however there is a newer family of high thermal stability turbine oils that perform considerably better under extreme heat. In other words, 2380 is really not great in high heat situations.

Our Eurocopter EC135 with the Turbomeca Arrius 2B1_A1 engines do tend to coke the aft bearing housing with 2380. So I've switched to 254 oil.

Remember that the bearings in turbine engines are very high grade ball or roller bearings. Some are lubricated via a pressurized system that simply provides a spray or mist to the bearing. Every once in a while, I come across a conventional sleeve type bearing on an accessory drive. Guess which bearing fails and is generally replaced, via service bulletin, by a more robust roller or ball bearing setup?

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Our Eurocopter EC135 with the Turbomeca Arrius 2B1_A1 engines do tend to coke the aft bearing housing with 2380. So I've switched to 254 oil.


How do you all employ the 135? It always looked to me to be a much better economic proposition than the 145 even given its slightly smaller size. I know it depends on the mission but still.... It's strange how I get drawn to one aircraft over another. It ought to be a logical process, and it is if driven by necessity, but for others you seem to just get a "feeling". Sorry to clog up your post with idle (incoherent?) thoughts this morning. I would ask though how your experience has been with the 135? Things to look for, maintenance and such? Would you buy another one?

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I work with 2380 and it is clearly very thin. It works well in many turbine engines, however there is a newer family of high thermal stability turbine oils that perform considerably better under extreme heat. In other words, 2380 is really not great in high heat situations.


True, all aviation turbine oils are thin, ranging from 3-5 cSt @ 100°C, except some turboprop engine oils at 7.5 cSt. Eastman TO 2380 is a 2nd generation oil developed in 1964, as is Mobil Jet 11 (1963). They works great in many engines but can form coke in many modern hotter-running engines. Mobil Jet 254 and Aeroshell 560 are 3rd generation oils from the 1980s designed to reduce coking in hot spots, and Eastman TO 2197, Mobil Jet 387, and Aeroshell Ascender are 4th generation clean oils. The main difference is the 4th generation oils have advanced anti-oxidant additives, and the Eastman 2197 and Aeroshell Ascender also have a more stable base ester. Still I would not use any of them in my car engine.

Tom NJ

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: Cujet


It works well in many turbine engines, however there is a newer family of high thermal stability turbine oils that perform considerably better under extreme heat. In other words, 2380 is really not great in high heat situations.


Is that why XOM, Shell and Eastman are pushing for 3rd(or 4th) generation oils in newer commercial engines like the GENx/newer GE90s and the CFM LEAP, Rolls-Royce Trent 900/1000/XWB, PW1000G/GP7200 for durability and to keep longer intervals via cleaner bearings and seals?

I've seen Southwest's airport mechanics at either DEN or OAK pour in a few quarts of 2380 into a CFM56-7B while a plane was on the ground being serviced and fueled up for its next trip. Those oils are generally compatible in small doses?

 

[Malo83]

Originally Posted By: Red91
Surely one quart among 4 or 5 quarts of PCMO wouldn't hurt anything.

When I was in the NAVY worked in the T56 Eng Shop rebuilding gear boxes and engine components, had a guy that would put Mil-L-23699 engine oil in his old Mustang, used a 50/50 mix ran it that way for 2yrs before he transfered, always wondered how long the engine lasted, he had the 6 cyl.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Our Eurocopter EC135 with the Turbomeca Arrius 2B1_A1 engines do tend to coke the aft bearing housing with 2380. So I've switched to 254 oil.


How do you all employ the 135? It always looked to me to be a much better economic proposition than the 145 even given its slightly smaller size. I know it depends on the mission but still.... It's strange how I get drawn to one aircraft over another. It ought to be a logical process, and it is if driven by necessity, but for others you seem to just get a "feeling". Sorry to clog up your post with idle (incoherent?) thoughts this morning. I would ask though how your experience has been with the 135? Things to look for, maintenance and such? Would you buy another one?


Private use. The helicopter is gorgeous, and that lends to it's appeal. However, the reality is that it is not a "late" serial number and has been exceedingly expensive to operate. It has just over 1000 hours total time, and is on it's 3rd set of rotor blades ($140K++ per blade, 4 blades per set) and it's 3rd near-catastrophic engine failure and it's first (very premature) transmission overhaul.

While our flight department likes flying it, I would never recommend an Airbus Helicopter (formerly Eurocopter) As the support has been nothing short of atrocious. Waiting 18 months for certain parts, a full 8 months for transmission overhaul, a year for a replacement rotor mast, etc.

Sure the new ones are far better, no question about that. I still don't trust the support.

If it were up to me, I'd purchase a Bell 429 and enjoy a reliable, better riding setup with good support.