Euro Cars Used to be Very Reliable
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Nick1994
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Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Speak2Mountain said:
Originally Posted By: B320i
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: Speak2Mountain
Euro Cars Used to be Very Reliable
They never were and they aren't now, what are you talking about?
They can make some magnificent machines, don't get me wrong. Comfortable, good looking, great performing, but reliable? No. Not even close.
Again, I cite the simple BMWs of the 1990s. About the only real mod-con my BMW has is climate control (and even then its only automatic temperature and has analogue controls). Although it must be said, with regular maintenance most vehicles should go the distance; whether the electronic gimmicks do too is another question entirely.
Most cars have weak-spots, but I can't say any work I've done is anything but routine. You can't say "no European car was ever reliable," because plenty of them evidently were - I see more 90s BMWs around than I do domestic makes (these existed in plague proportions in the past).
Having experienced the domestic competitors of my 3-series: There is no comparison in quality. My vehicle's interior is still intact, without squeaks and rattles. The engine is good, as is the transmission. Meanwhile, Falcons of the 90s were plagued with head gasket issues that took over a decade for Ford to rectify, and neither Fords or Holdens were ever put together that well. Neither had particularly good fuel economy. Both types had decent power-trains, overall, but were let down in various ways.
Parts for BMWs in Australia are ludicrously expensive. In this day and age though, one needn't fuel price gouging. Purchasing online can mean prices just 1/5 of what is asked locally. While I certainly agree with "supporting the little guys," if they want to charge 5x the price of U.S. outlets (after currency exchange), they can get stuffed.
Yep. E34 BMW's have legendary reliability. Had a 95 525i 5 speed. Sold with 200k miles very few issues.Clutch, starter, radiator around 170-190k. That was about it. E36's still many around with crazy miles. I still own my 98 328i. Still drives great with a few small interior plastic parts failing but cheap in these days of internet new/used parts. E46/E39 was the beginning of the end for BMW reliability.
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: Speak2Mountain
Euro Cars Used to be Very Reliable
They never were and they aren't now, what are you talking about?
They can make some magnificent machines, don't get me wrong. Comfortable, good looking, great performing, but reliable? No. Not even close.
Again, I cite the simple BMWs of the 1990s. About the only real mod-con my BMW has is climate control (and even then its only automatic temperature and has analogue controls). Although it must be said, with regular maintenance most vehicles should go the distance; whether the electronic gimmicks do too is another question entirely.
Most cars have weak-spots, but I can't say any work I've done is anything but routine. You can't say "no European car was ever reliable," because plenty of them evidently were - I see more 90s BMWs around than I do domestic makes (these existed in plague proportions in the past).
Having experienced the domestic competitors of my 3-series: There is no comparison in quality. My vehicle's interior is still intact, without squeaks and rattles. The engine is good, as is the transmission. Meanwhile, Falcons of the 90s were plagued with head gasket issues that took over a decade for Ford to rectify, and neither Fords or Holdens were ever put together that well. Neither had particularly good fuel economy. Both types had decent power-trains, overall, but were let down in various ways.
Parts for BMWs in Australia are ludicrously expensive. In this day and age though, one needn't fuel price gouging. Purchasing online can mean prices just 1/5 of what is asked locally. While I certainly agree with "supporting the little guys," if they want to charge 5x the price of U.S. outlets (after currency exchange), they can get stuffed.
Yep. E34 BMW's have legendary reliability. Had a 95 525i 5 speed. Sold with 200k miles very few issues.Clutch, starter, radiator around 170-190k. That was about it. E36's still many around with crazy miles. I still own my 98 328i. Still drives great with a few small interior plastic parts failing but cheap in these days of internet new/used parts. E46/E39 was the beginning of the end for BMW reliability.
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
..... Of course there's always a random one that's decent.
....
I expect the good ones of all marques outnumber the bad ones by a pretty large margin.
Unless we're talking about Italian cars - I didn't have the guts to get her a Quattroporte.
..... Of course there's always a random one that's decent.
....
I expect the good ones of all marques outnumber the bad ones by a pretty large margin.
Unless we're talking about Italian cars - I didn't have the guts to get her a Quattroporte.
Originally Posted By: B320i
than I do domestic makes (these existed in plague proportions in the past).
Having experienced the domestic competitors of my 3-series: There is no comparison in quality.
It's interesting that you have that perception of your domestic marques. I've had two Holden's: Monaro and Commodore, still have the latter, and they seem to be pretty good cars - as good as anything I've owned, and I feel like I have been fortunate enough to have owned some pretty decent cars.
I would much prefer a Falcon to a BMW, but Ford didn't sell them here. The Holden's also sold poorly, so perhaps I am an outlier.
than I do domestic makes (these existed in plague proportions in the past).
Having experienced the domestic competitors of my 3-series: There is no comparison in quality.
It's interesting that you have that perception of your domestic marques. I've had two Holden's: Monaro and Commodore, still have the latter, and they seem to be pretty good cars - as good as anything I've owned, and I feel like I have been fortunate enough to have owned some pretty decent cars.
I would much prefer a Falcon to a BMW, but Ford didn't sell them here. The Holden's also sold poorly, so perhaps I am an outlier.
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
Lexus killed German brands...the Germans tried to "out electronic" the Asians and failed. There's a reason we have Sony TVs at home, not Grundig.
It hasn't killed them in sales. People still go for the BMW even thought it might have more problems.
Lexus is also the only premium Japanese brand that had some sort of success.
Infinity and Acura have not been successful and have very poor sales.
Well..
Would someone rather buy a Lexus or an Audi? Say they are both AWD with identical interiors. Leather, nav etc.
Audi, of course.
Audi actually seems a bit cheaper too.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
Lexus killed German brands...the Germans tried to "out electronic" the Asians and failed. There's a reason we have Sony TVs at home, not Grundig.
It hasn't killed them in sales. People still go for the BMW even thought it might have more problems.
Lexus is also the only premium Japanese brand that had some sort of success.
Infinity and Acura have not been successful and have very poor sales.
Well..
Would someone rather buy a Lexus or an Audi? Say they are both AWD with identical interiors. Leather, nav etc.
Audi, of course.
Audi actually seems a bit cheaper too.
We had an Acura and loved it. I'd look at one now if I needed a new car but no local dealer.
Originally Posted By: barryh
rooflessVW said:
Nick1994
$100 site donor 2024
Originally Posted By: cadfaeltex
We had an Acura and loved it. I'd look at one now if I needed a new car but no local dealer.
What does an Acura have to do with European cars?
We had an Acura and loved it. I'd look at one now if I needed a new car but no local dealer.
What does an Acura have to do with European cars?
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: cadfaeltex
We had an Acura and loved it. I'd look at one now if I needed a new car but no local dealer.
What does an Acura have to do with European cars?
The discussion had gone to Lexus and Acura compared to the modern Euro makers. Should have quoted the part of the discussion I was referencing I reckon.
Originally Posted By: cadfaeltex
We had an Acura and loved it. I'd look at one now if I needed a new car but no local dealer.
What does an Acura have to do with European cars?
The discussion had gone to Lexus and Acura compared to the modern Euro makers. Should have quoted the part of the discussion I was referencing I reckon.
Here in the UK, WarrantyDirect publish a Reliability Index for all car manufacturers based on warranty repairs that pass through their books.
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex
The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).
Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex
The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).
Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).
I'm sure some were. My Question is : What about now? Or the past 15 years for that matter ? I know my experience here is only a small sample but based on the friends & Associates of our family I have to say : Nein danke : Not to mention automotive forums are littered with this common advice about long term ownership : "Lease or own up until the warranty expiration date & then run for the hills". : Ouch : Makes me want to open a chain of Euro-haus Repair shops. $$$ : Even more disturbing, Based on sales figures people couldn't care less.
As I noted in another thread; I bought a 2004 X3 2.5i in December of 2005 and kept it for 11 years, 5 months. If I had leased a car at $550/month(with no money down) or bought a new car every four years during that period-to make sure my vehicle was always covered under warranty-I would have spent up to $32,000 more than the actual depreciation and service/repair costs(including three sets of tires) of the X3. And note that I changed oil at 8.000 mile intervals, ATF at 60,000 intervals, and coolant every 3-4 years.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Here in the UK, WarrantyDirect publish a Reliability Index for all car manufacturers based on warranty repairs that pass through their books.
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex
The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).
Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).
And FIAT is fifteenth out of 39. Not brilliant but way better than average.
Here in the UK, WarrantyDirect publish a Reliability Index for all car manufacturers based on warranty repairs that pass through their books.
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex
The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).
Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).
And FIAT is fifteenth out of 39. Not brilliant but way better than average.
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Here in the UK, WarrantyDirect publish a Reliability Index for all car manufacturers based on warranty repairs that pass through their books.
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex
The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).
Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).
And FIAT is fifteenth out of 39. Not brilliant but way better than average.
Average is 100, FIAT is marginally above average.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Here in the UK, WarrantyDirect publish a Reliability Index for all car manufacturers based on warranty repairs that pass through their books.
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex
The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).
Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).
And FIAT is fifteenth out of 39. Not brilliant but way better than average.
Average is 100, FIAT is marginally above average.
Originally Posted By: NGRhodes
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Here in the UK, WarrantyDirect publish a Reliability Index for all car manufacturers based on warranty repairs that pass through their books.
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex
The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).
Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).
And FIAT is fifteenth out of 39. Not brilliant but way better than average.
Average is 100, FIAT is marginally above average.
Well yes but there are more makes below average than above and that makes it better than average (within this group).
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Here in the UK, WarrantyDirect publish a Reliability Index for all car manufacturers based on warranty repairs that pass through their books.
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex
The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).
Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).
And FIAT is fifteenth out of 39. Not brilliant but way better than average.
Average is 100, FIAT is marginally above average.
Well yes but there are more makes below average than above and that makes it better than average (within this group).
There is that saying that average MB or BMW is closer to Ferrari then Toyota.
That being said, will always drive Euro cars. Just like the fact that they can do much more then other cars on the road. I kind of like the fact that I have actual brakes on the car, and do not need car from manufacturer telling me: when you get in accident, our car is best.
When I look Toyota, Subaru etc. commercials, everything is about: once you get in accident, you are in good hands.
That being said, will always drive Euro cars. Just like the fact that they can do much more then other cars on the road. I kind of like the fact that I have actual brakes on the car, and do not need car from manufacturer telling me: when you get in accident, our car is best.
When I look Toyota, Subaru etc. commercials, everything is about: once you get in accident, you are in good hands.
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
Lexus killed German brands...the Germans tried to "out electronic" the Asians and failed. There's a reason we have Sony TVs at home, not Grundig.
It hasn't killed them in sales. People still go for the BMW even thought it might have more problems.
Lexus is also the only premium Japanese brand that had some sort of success.
Infinity and Acura have not been successful and have very poor sales.
Well..
Would someone rather buy a Lexus or an Audi? Say they are both AWD with identical interiors. Leather, nav etc.
Audi, of course.
I'm bias toward Lexus, but then again I'm biased toward reliability, or at least the reputation of it.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
Lexus killed German brands...the Germans tried to "out electronic" the Asians and failed. There's a reason we have Sony TVs at home, not Grundig.
It hasn't killed them in sales. People still go for the BMW even thought it might have more problems.
Lexus is also the only premium Japanese brand that had some sort of success.
Infinity and Acura have not been successful and have very poor sales.
Well..
Would someone rather buy a Lexus or an Audi? Say they are both AWD with identical interiors. Leather, nav etc.
Audi, of course.
I'm bias toward Lexus, but then again I'm biased toward reliability, or at least the reputation of it.
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