Toyota 5w20, 1996 Civic 1.6L UOA

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Originally Posted By: PimTac
I know there will be a few people here who will be surely disappointed if a analysis shows the 0w-20 losing the moly. That has been the selling point of TGMO. We will have to watch the uoa's here for any changes.

I'd love for those who are so disappointed to give a concise description of what moly does and how it matters if it was replaced by something else, and how the replacement would be inferior.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I know there will be a few people here who will be surely disappointed if a analysis shows the 0w-20 losing the moly. That has been the selling point of TGMO. We will have to watch the uoa's here for any changes.

I'd love for those who are so disappointed to give a concise description of what moly does and how it matters if it was replaced by something else, and how the replacement would be inferior.



I don't doubt that moly is a good additive but it's not the ultimate one either. We are seeing less and less moly being used. There are components that offer the same effects but do not show up on analysis reports.

TGMO has a big following because of the large amount of moly that is present. Take that away and what do you have? Again, a new VOA or UOA is needed to confirm all this.
 
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I know there will be a few people here who will be surely disappointed if a analysis shows the 0w-20 losing the moly. That has been the selling point of TGMO. We will have to watch the uoa's here for any changes.

I'd love for those who are so disappointed to give a concise description of what moly does and how it matters if it was replaced by something else, and how the replacement would be inferior.

I don't doubt that moly is a good additive but it's not the ultimate one either. We are seeing less and less moly being used. There are components that offer the same effects but do not show up on analysis reports.

TGMO has a big following because of the large amount of moly that is present. Take that away and what do you have? Again, a new VOA or UOA is needed to confirm all this.

I don't think TGMO 5W-xx conventional has ever had any moly. So, nothing has changed. TGMO 5W-xx conventional could be the same as Mobil Super conventional, which also has titanium and sodium but no moly.

TGMO 0W-20 SN synthetic is an entirely different oil than TGMO 5W-xx conventional. It has nothing to do with Mobil Super. It doesn't use sodium and it's rather generously packed with trinuclear moly because Toyota instructs ExxonMobil to do so as they want the highest possible MPG out of the 0W-20 grade, as TGMO 0W-20 SN synthetic is their standard flagship motor oil for newer vehicles that boast the highest fuel economy in the industry.

See these UOAs:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2767842/Toyota_5W/30,_4863_miles,_2011
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2179650/Mobil_Super_5000_5w30_SN/GF5
 
Originally Posted By: researcher
I've been lurking for some time, not posting but still enjoying this site!

Decided to finally get a UOA on one of my cars, a 1996 Honda Civic, 200k miles. Would like to get everyone's opinion on the results I just got back from Blackstone.. I'm thinking it looks good. But wondering about that Lead number, averages are 4, I'm at 5, no big deal? Or am I over thinking it about changing from 5w20 to 5w30?

Lead is a little high but then these old engines tend to show high lead. I don't know if switching to thicker oil would help.

I dislike oils that contain sodium because then you can't tell if there is coolant contamination, which also brings sodium. Coolant contamination would increase lead wear.

If you're going to use xW-20, use 0W-20 synthetic instead of 5W-20 conventional. It protects better.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00JLILD3K/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
it's rather generously packed with trinuclear moly because Toyota instructs ExxonMobil to do so as they want the highest possible MPG out of the 0W-20 grade, as TGMO 0W-20 SN synthetic is their standard flagship motor oil for newer vehicles that boast the highest fuel economy in the industry.


Cool, that's a set of documents that I'd love you to post links to...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The new Quadnuclear moly is so effective that you don't have to put ANY in.

As long as there's a bottle sitting on the desk of the Toyota engineer who wrote the formula, it will provide superior wear protection under all circumstances, everywhere at the same time.

TGMO...it's what's NOT inside that makes it so special.


thanks Shannow!! I was dying laughing!!
lol.gif
thumbsup2.gif

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: researcher
I've been lurking for some time, not posting but still enjoying this site!

Decided to finally get a UOA on one of my cars, a 1996 Honda Civic, 200k miles. Would like to get everyone's opinion on the results I just got back from Blackstone.. I'm thinking it looks good. But wondering about that Lead number, averages are 4, I'm at 5, no big deal? Or am I over thinking it about changing from 5w20 to 5w30?

Lead is a little high but then these old engines tend to show high lead. I don't know if switching to thicker oil would help.

I dislike oils that contain sodium because then you can't tell if there is coolant contamination, which also brings sodium. Coolant contamination would increase lead wear.

If you're going to use xW-20, use 0W-20 synthetic instead of 5W-20 conventional. It protects better.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00JLILD3K/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new

yeah I can bet Lead was a little high because the oil was thinning out way too much. The engine was designed for 5w-30 but Honda back-spec'd 5w-20. I began using 5w-20 after the engine rebuild in 04 because of "piston slap" the previous engine developed. Can call it what you want, superstition. But when 5w-20 was available I used that after the rebuild. Sure it might have been coincidental but after 13 years no piston slap and excellent compression. But I didn't like how the Toyota/TGMO was thinning out. Way too much. I've also seen the same thing with Mobil's oil, of course they make it for Toyota.

I have switched to Castrol GTX Conventional since I don't want to go full syn, not on an older engine, not yet, baby steps. I know the whole thing about the marketing term "synthetic" compared to the real thing. But for now I'll see how Castrol GTX does in comparison to the Toyota stuff. If it thins out too, I will definitely take your advice about 0w-20, or 5w-30, I just dont want to get the dreaded piston slap again! So I feel that baby steps is appropriate.

So far with the Castrol GTX Conventional 5w-20, I have already jumped up 5.4mpg! I have done my research of the "old school" oil that this civic engine enjoyed and they had moly in them compared to titanium. Hey an engine likes what it likes. I'm not one to argue. I do know from what I've learned, moly will melt at a higher temp onto the friction surfaces, where titanium requires lower temps. Sure they do the "same thing" but it's not the same for this engine since the evidence is showing already. All I did was copy what was worked from the past (or similar to it).

I'll be updating this as I get more lab results but so far I'm happy with the change, we'll see.


and I would love to see those documents that show Mobil is using a trinuclear moly, always wanting to learn more.

EDIT: also wanted to add, if you notice on the UOA, you'll see I lowered the miles on the oil change and yup, lead wear went down, along with the evidence the Toyota stuff was NOT keeping up. I'm not that impressed. Nothing against Toyota but when there are such better performers out there, I wasn't going to stay with it anymore, thinning out way too much. I was using Toyota because it worked so well in my Scion tC 2az-fe engine, there was a time when this oil worked but something has changed. So onto something better then...
 
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We've had no proof that TGMO has tri-knuckle moly in it yet it keeps being pronounced as gospel. I would still want a new analysis of the magical TGMO. I suspect that it has changed.
 
Originally Posted By: researcher
Originally Posted By: danielLD
Yeah, because you're diluting this engine hard. Consider a 0W20 M1EP. Your bearing have taken hits in the past. Could be a variety of issues, do you have a scanner at home?


Yes I have an obd2 scanner, what did you want to know?

Even using the toyota branded oil (mobil supplies it) in other cars it had sheared/thinned out quickly. I have since changed the oil in the Civic to Castrol GTX conventional 5w20, which had a completely different additive package, plus we'll see if it hold it's viscosity. So far the fuel economy has jumped up 5.4mpg!

But sad to know the bearings took that hit, wish I knew back then what I know now! It's probably not catastrophic failure, but no wear would be the goal.





can you drive around at least 20 minutes and then idle the car for 60 seconds and left me know where the long term fuel trims sit and what the lambda ratio is?

Now to address the rest of the misinformation on this thread.......Dear goodness, y'all have no idea what you're talking about. Until Researcher gets more advanced UOA on his sample NONE of you know what's happening, and it has nothing to do with Moly. The oils I've personally tested that performed the best and spanked AMS, RL, Motul, M1, Pennz UP/PP, Castrol GTX, TGMO, Valvoline has 0 moly in it. We have no idea(other than I have a best guess based on experience having limited UOA with advanced UOA) what's really happening. He could have a variety of mechanical issues that this Blackstone UOA will never point out.
 
Lots of bad information being circulated around here. Reminds me of the technician last week at Lexus that told me synthetic oil in a "conventional engine" will make it explode. Oh boy
 
Originally Posted By: danielLD
Now to address the rest of the misinformation on this thread.......Dear goodness, y'all have no idea what you're talking about. Until Researcher gets more advanced UOA on his sample NONE of you know what's happening, and it has nothing to do with Moly. The oils I've personally tested that performed the best and spanked AMS, RL, Motul, M1, Pennz UP/PP, Castrol GTX, TGMO, Valvoline has 0 moly in it. We have no idea(other than I have a best guess based on experience having limited UOA with advanced UOA) what's really happening. He could have a variety of mechanical issues that this Blackstone UOA will never point out.

Well it's a good thing you joined. You haven't been here before, have you?
 
Originally Posted By: danielLD
Originally Posted By: researcher
Originally Posted By: danielLD
Yeah, because you're diluting this engine hard. Consider a 0W20 M1EP. Your bearing have taken hits in the past. Could be a variety of issues, do you have a scanner at home?


Yes I have an obd2 scanner, what did you want to know?

Even using the toyota branded oil (mobil supplies it) in other cars it had sheared/thinned out quickly. I have since changed the oil in the Civic to Castrol GTX conventional 5w20, which had a completely different additive package, plus we'll see if it hold it's viscosity. So far the fuel economy has jumped up 5.4mpg!

But sad to know the bearings took that hit, wish I knew back then what I know now! It's probably not catastrophic failure, but no wear would be the goal.





can you drive around at least 20 minutes and then idle the car for 60 seconds and left me know where the long term fuel trims sit and what the lambda ratio is?

Now to address the rest of the misinformation on this thread.......Dear goodness, y'all have no idea what you're talking about. Until Researcher gets more advanced UOA on his sample NONE of you know what's happening, and it has nothing to do with Moly. The oils I've personally tested that performed the best and spanked AMS, RL, Motul, M1, Pennz UP/PP, Castrol GTX, TGMO, Valvoline has 0 moly in it. We have no idea(other than I have a best guess based on experience having limited UOA with advanced UOA) what's really happening. He could have a variety of mechanical issues that this Blackstone UOA will never point out.


there is no lambda value on the 96 Civic engine, but I can look again. I know it's on the 06 Scion tC I have. But I can read the LT and ST fuel trims next time I'm in there. I know they were under 5% I'll check that and report back.

Now you're saying what? I was trying to understand.. you're saying oil that was the best and spanked? "spanked" what? Or you're saying that the list you gave were oils that were the best?

And as far as mechanical issues, this engine has been a rebuild project for 4 years. Everything has been looked at, sure I haven't measured the run-out of the crankshaft bearings, but everything that could be repaired/looked at/tweaked, etc has been. I'm not worried about 4 or 5 ppm (parts per million) of iron, it was the overall trend I was looking at.

I know I have said this before, but to repeat myself. Keeping a log of fuel economy (mpg's) and comparing that to the thinning out of the oil, I could clearly see that as the oil thinned out, the miles per gallon dropped down. It was more than coincidental. Now that's more than Moly, I know that.

Either way I had enough evidence that the Toyota/TGMO 5w20 was NOT keeping up anymore. And the civic's have been well known to be easy on oil!

I'll be able to see how this oil keeps up over time. But yeah I'll get the ST/LT fuel trims.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: danielLD
Now to address the rest of the misinformation on this thread.......Dear goodness, y'all have no idea what you're talking about. Until Researcher gets more advanced UOA on his sample NONE of you know what's happening, and it has nothing to do with Moly. The oils I've personally tested that performed the best and spanked AMS, RL, Motul, M1, Pennz UP/PP, Castrol GTX, TGMO, Valvoline has 0 moly in it. We have no idea(other than I have a best guess based on experience having limited UOA with advanced UOA) what's really happening. He could have a variety of mechanical issues that this Blackstone UOA will never point out.

Well it's a good thing you joined. You haven't been here before, have you?


Nope, I have never been a forum kind of guy, especially with some of the stuff I've read on here. Terry warned me a long time ago to stay away but I figured too many people on here hungry for information. If the forum mods ban me, I'll keep feeding the hungry until I am, LOL.

Also I don't get notifications for any of my threads I post on, is there a way to fix that?
 
@researcher, ok noted, report back fuel trims at idle after driving around for a bit.

The oils I've personally tested that performed the best and spanked AMS, RL, Motul, M1, Pennz UP/PP, Castrol GTX, TGMO, Valvoline has 0 moly in it. Meaning the oils I have found that out performed those named had 0 moly in them. If you know how moly works, it's really not all that impressive. Plus it masks issues in UOA that we could normally see.

your quote: "I know I have said this before, but to repeat myself. Keeping a log of fuel economy (mpg's) and comparing that to the thinning out of the oil, I could clearly see that as the oil thinned out, the miles per gallon dropped down. It was more than coincidental. Now that's more than Moly, I know that."

Yes, but you're failing to address why. Your oil is shearing due to fuels dilutions. This is because the oils you are using have poor ring seal in your combustion chamber. An oil that improves the ring seal will improve power, fuel economy and a whole lot more other stuff. As ring seal improves you're going to see that oil hold up better because now it's not fighting the fuel to maintain viscosity.

That fuels dilution is what is elevating your oil pump and bearing wear. Cu and PB. You could have 0 with proper selection. Your oil is loaded too, lack of good filtration and an older engine with deposit formation. Tackling this is not too hard.

With a better UOA, we would see, if there's spark issues, O2 sensor issues, timing issues, etc.
 
Originally Posted By: danielLD
@researcher, ok noted, report back fuel trims at idle after driving around for a bit.

your quote: "I know I have said this before, but to repeat myself. Keeping a log of fuel economy (mpg's) and comparing that to the thinning out of the oil, I could clearly see that as the oil thinned out, the miles per gallon dropped down. It was more than coincidental. Now that's more than Moly, I know that."

Yes, but you're failing to address why. Your oil is shearing due to fuels dilutions. This is because the oils you are using have poor ring seal in your combustion chamber. An oil that improves the ring seal will improve power, fuel economy and a whole lot more other stuff. As ring seal improves you're going to see that oil hold up better because now it's not fighting the fuel to maintain viscosity.

That fuels dilution is what is elevating your oil pump and bearing wear. Cu and PB. You could have 0 with proper selection. Your oil is loaded too, lack of good filtration and an older engine with deposit formation. Tackling this is not too hard.

With a better UOA, we would see, if there's spark issues, O2 sensor issues, timing issues, etc.


hmmm well polaris labs (oil analyzers) hasn't shown any fuel dilution either. The image is attached below. The engine is not that old 70k miles on it, and the compression has been checked, all is well.

I also have tested the Toyota/TGMO oil in my Scion tC and it also has thinned out. It's obvious that Toyota/Mobil has changed this formulation and not for the better. And yes the tC's engine has been thoroughly checked out. Nothing wrong with it. Soo.It's not just the Civic this has happened in. Just like I have seen UOA's of Mobil1 and people continue to complain about oil consumption. Had nothing to do with the engine it was the oil. Same way as I have seen here with the Toyota oil. What? An oil can't thin out on its own due to pressure, temperature? Of course it can. I appreciate the help but after having gone over the entire car, including all aspects of the engine, I can confidently say it's working properly. I'll check the fuel trims tomorrow but from what I remember I think it was LT, 0.3% and ST was -0.3% but I'll get the numbers tomorrow. It wasn't anything to get excited about.

Oh the engine being "old" or poor filtration.. Has 70k miles on it which is not alot, not for this era of Honda engines. Have done a particle count on it already, very low in contaminants.. So the oil filter is doing well. Results were ISO CODE (3), 16/15/13. Its already there on the posted Blackstone lab image.

EDIT: In response to the 02 issue, those were tested, and replaced, working properly now. The ignition system has been entirely replaced (Timing is correct). The distributor was replaced, but only the housing is aftermarket, the igniter and ignition coil are Honda. I have tested the three sensors built into the distributor, all within proper resistance values set by Honda. The spark plugs I replace every year (I'm picky) and the condition is textbook, light tan/brown on center electrode insulator. Like I was saying, everything has been repaired, replaced, and/or adjusted. Even the fuel filter is new as well. The fuel injectors have also been replaced and have been cleaned, tested, flow rate/pattern checked.
 
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Here is the Polaris Labs/Oil Analyzers results for the Civic.. Forgot to post this as well.
Notice the fuel dilution? Also low.. But always open for constructive criticism..

 
oh boy, not sure where to even start. To understand particle count you reAlly have to know what you're doing. There are only a select few people in the world that I would trust to interpret a particle count. Interpreting a particle count is 10X than trying to interpret a UOA, which none of you are properly doing here.

Notice, under fuel dilution the words "ESTIMATE", that is because they are doing nothing different than what blackstone is doing. You still have failed to get a solid UOA. I need more detailed UOA, not FTIR estimates. I know the guys very very well at Polaris, enough to know they've had FTIR read out issues for a while now.

Mobil 1 does not shear on it's own. It is a very tough oil. You've been diluting fuel in the crank case since day one. Your fuel dilution was around 4%, possibly even higher. Poor ring seal, I suspect other variables as well and your filter is doing a poor job.

You can have poor ring seal and great compression. Compression test won't identify poor ring seal during combustion.
 
Originally Posted By: danielLD
oh boy, not sure where to even start. To understand particle count you reAlly have to know what you're doing. There are only a select few people in the world that I would trust to interpret a particle count. Interpreting a particle count is 10X than trying to interpret a UOA, which none of you are properly doing here.

You're using some very strong wording here, and in several of your other posts, without ever backing up any notion in the slightest to benefit other users with your experience. "None" here can properly interpret an analysis, despite there being several formulators on the board and others who have interpreted UOAs for many, many years professionally. You know of a magical oil that that "spanks" every oil out there, yet won't tell us what it is. Moly has problems that you won't tell anyone about. All oil labs in North America are incompetent or outright fraudsters except one, and you won't tell us who that is, either.
 
Because it's the same oil that got someone kicked off this board 10 years ago. I've basically been told where I "can" go and where I "can't". So long as I stay within these limits, I can't be banned.

A formulator is not an analyst, usually. Some of the best oils in the markets made by wonderful guys have very bad interpretation skills.

Never called anyone dumb, if some of the best automotive analysts struggle big time with particle count, how is it that magically guys that do it for fun are better at it? PC has big limitations and few understand it. No need for anyone to get offended. I don't remodel kitchens or do back surgery.

Oh sure, you want me to name drop? Worked at ANA and Tribologik, did collaborative work with Dyson Analysis, have worked with other companies as well. I really don't want to have to say more, if you need me to drop things like CLS and MLA II then you have paid 0 attention to what I said and now look at me as a source based on a sheet of paper that says I based an exam.
 
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