Thanks for reminding me of that study, modular! I was just discussing it with someone but couldn't name the source. IIRC, new oil "washes" the existing anti-wear additives off the surfaces and it takes a bit of time for them to build back up, so after your oil change, there is a period of increased wear. Another black mark against the overly-frequent oil change.... the wastefulness of which is often dismissed by the statement," Oh but my engine LOVES it."
Interesting: Ford Issues new 5w-20 spec (Europe)
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A lot of the issues that we are seeing here with DI are a result of our required lower NOx standards. That requires the engine to be run richer to get the catalyst to be effective for NOx reduction.
Do not assume that because it is done in Europe that we can do it here. The engines are tuned differently.
Ed
Do not assume that because it is done in Europe that we can do it here. The engines are tuned differently.
Ed
Originally Posted By: tig1
20wt?? Must be CAFE. HAHA.
Since he specifically said in the piece it was for fuel economy...
@ EdHackett
Sorry, Ed, but the facts say different. The whole reason for DI is increased efficiency, that doesn't spell 'richer' at all. All engines nowadays have a catalyst light up sequence that will fuel them up a bit for a few SECONDS at startup. But that's it.
Plus, no amount of variation in mixture will do anything to the valves in a DI engine as they never see fuel.
20wt?? Must be CAFE. HAHA.
Since he specifically said in the piece it was for fuel economy...
@ EdHackett
Sorry, Ed, but the facts say different. The whole reason for DI is increased efficiency, that doesn't spell 'richer' at all. All engines nowadays have a catalyst light up sequence that will fuel them up a bit for a few SECONDS at startup. But that's it.
Plus, no amount of variation in mixture will do anything to the valves in a DI engine as they never see fuel.
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The trend towards lower viscosity and fuel efficiency is global, including heavy equipment/commercial operators. There are many new technologies (both hardware and lubricants) on the horizon and OEMs are researching and integrating these into their products.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Thanks for reminding me of that study, modular! I was just discussing it with someone but couldn't name the source. IIRC, new oil "washes" the existing anti-wear additives off the surfaces and it takes a bit of time for them to build back up, so after your oil change, there is a period of increased wear. Another black mark against the overly-frequent oil change.... the wastefulness of which is often dismissed by the statement," Oh but my engine LOVES it."
This "washing" effect would be exacerbated by changing brands each time with different add packs trading places. While changing brands might help dissolve deposits that one oil won't get rid of, the same would apply to the anti-wear coating....
Thanks for reminding me of that study, modular! I was just discussing it with someone but couldn't name the source. IIRC, new oil "washes" the existing anti-wear additives off the surfaces and it takes a bit of time for them to build back up, so after your oil change, there is a period of increased wear. Another black mark against the overly-frequent oil change.... the wastefulness of which is often dismissed by the statement," Oh but my engine LOVES it."
This "washing" effect would be exacerbated by changing brands each time with different add packs trading places. While changing brands might help dissolve deposits that one oil won't get rid of, the same would apply to the anti-wear coating....
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
If I'm reading the article correctly, they are recommending an OCI of 20,000 km (12,427 miles) in a DI turbo that will require it's scrawny little neck to be rung out with every shift to find any power. I wonder if they care about fuel %, FP fallback and viscosity dilution like I get in my Mazdaspeed. Maybe we are WAY too conservative here.
You are correct. Do these engines use DAMB actuated valve-trains? Long term durability of DI engine valve-train components is important to Ford.
I have read SAE paper 2006-01-1099, a study by Ford Motor Co. (2006)
"Characterization of Anti-Wear Films Formed from Fresh and Aged Engine Oils"
Conclusion: They found aged oil has significantly greater antiwear and lower friction properties than fresh oil.
Perhaps the results of this study, higher quality motor oil specification, and Ford's engine designs promote the long drain interval.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Thanks for reminding me of that study, modular! I was just discussing it with someone but couldn't name the source. IIRC, new oil "washes" the existing anti-wear additives off the surfaces and it takes a bit of time for them to build back up, so after your oil change, there is a period of increased wear. Another black mark against the overly-frequent oil change.... the wastefulness of which is often dismissed by the statement," Oh but my engine LOVES it."
Modular & Jim:
If true, that's a real revelation for an old dog like me who's been changing oil in motorcycles and cars for over 40 years. Assuming you agree with the finding of this study, how does it impact your personal practices in maintaining your vehicles? I see this then read a thread about engine sludge where you come away wanting to go back to the old 3000 miles days.
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
If I'm reading the article correctly, they are recommending an OCI of 20,000 km (12,427 miles) in a DI turbo that will require it's scrawny little neck to be rung out with every shift to find any power. I wonder if they care about fuel %, FP fallback and viscosity dilution like I get in my Mazdaspeed. Maybe we are WAY too conservative here.
You are correct. Do these engines use DAMB actuated valve-trains? Long term durability of DI engine valve-train components is important to Ford.
I have read SAE paper 2006-01-1099, a study by Ford Motor Co. (2006)
"Characterization of Anti-Wear Films Formed from Fresh and Aged Engine Oils"
Conclusion: They found aged oil has significantly greater antiwear and lower friction properties than fresh oil.
Perhaps the results of this study, higher quality motor oil specification, and Ford's engine designs promote the long drain interval.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Thanks for reminding me of that study, modular! I was just discussing it with someone but couldn't name the source. IIRC, new oil "washes" the existing anti-wear additives off the surfaces and it takes a bit of time for them to build back up, so after your oil change, there is a period of increased wear. Another black mark against the overly-frequent oil change.... the wastefulness of which is often dismissed by the statement," Oh but my engine LOVES it."
Modular & Jim:
If true, that's a real revelation for an old dog like me who's been changing oil in motorcycles and cars for over 40 years. Assuming you agree with the finding of this study, how does it impact your personal practices in maintaining your vehicles? I see this then read a thread about engine sludge where you come away wanting to go back to the old 3000 miles days.
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Sorry, Ed, but the facts say different. The whole reason for DI is increased efficiency, that doesn't spell 'richer' at all. All engines nowadays have a catalyst light up sequence that will fuel them up a bit for a few SECONDS at startup. But that's it.
Do a bit of research on how the Europeans implement DI(lean burn) vs how it is implemented in the U.S. Also google three way catalyst and learn what chemical conditions are needed for the reduction of NOx vs the oxidation of CO and hydrocarbons and how the conditions are achieved.
Ed
Sorry, Ed, but the facts say different. The whole reason for DI is increased efficiency, that doesn't spell 'richer' at all. All engines nowadays have a catalyst light up sequence that will fuel them up a bit for a few SECONDS at startup. But that's it.
Do a bit of research on how the Europeans implement DI(lean burn) vs how it is implemented in the U.S. Also google three way catalyst and learn what chemical conditions are needed for the reduction of NOx vs the oxidation of CO and hydrocarbons and how the conditions are achieved.
Ed
It would seem to me that a smaller engine might be made from smaller parts and that to keep it operating at the same efficiency as a larger engine of similar design it would need smaller clearances and thinner oil to work in those smaller clearances. Maybe I've had one too many beers tonight to understand the mystery properly.
Indydriver,
Okay, I have reread several of these SAE papers and the Ford paper is the most enlightening. The studies were conducted to determine the ability of oil additives in aging oil to continue to provide antifriction (fuel economy) and antiwear properties (durability).
From the Ford report, fresh oil always provides the best antifriction/antiwear performance at all temperatures. Aged oil has carbonaceous compounds from combustion byproducts (soot)and changes to oil (oxidation). Aged oil without additives exhibited similar antiwear/antifriction properties to fresh fully formulated oil but only at elevated temperatures (104C), below this temperature the effect was lost.
The only thing mentioned was that protective tribochemical films can be "washed away" when fresh oil is introduced of a different formulation. The take-away here is: 1) Pick an oil and stick with it. 2) Change your oil according to manufacturer's maintenane schedule.
Okay, I have reread several of these SAE papers and the Ford paper is the most enlightening. The studies were conducted to determine the ability of oil additives in aging oil to continue to provide antifriction (fuel economy) and antiwear properties (durability).
From the Ford report, fresh oil always provides the best antifriction/antiwear performance at all temperatures. Aged oil has carbonaceous compounds from combustion byproducts (soot)and changes to oil (oxidation). Aged oil without additives exhibited similar antiwear/antifriction properties to fresh fully formulated oil but only at elevated temperatures (104C), below this temperature the effect was lost.
The only thing mentioned was that protective tribochemical films can be "washed away" when fresh oil is introduced of a different formulation. The take-away here is: 1) Pick an oil and stick with it. 2) Change your oil according to manufacturer's maintenane schedule.
This isn't really that big of a watershed event. Ford was already spec'ing either 0W-30 or 5W-30 for my car in the 90's, basically a Ford Mondeo...
I see this is the new spec for the 2017 Focus in the USA (and maybe other models?). I see very few options in the USA right now. Hopefully Ford dealers have it.
Motul SPECIFIC 948 B 5W-20 is the only other oil I see that's available in the USA. Anyone know other options?
Motul SPECIFIC 948 B 5W-20 is the only other oil I see that's available in the USA. Anyone know other options?
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