TBN Zero

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Hi

I’m looking for some help / advice with a recent UOA I had done on my car.

98 RON fuel sulphur content over here in Oz is supposed to be 50 ppm.

The TBN came back at 0 on a sample with 4040 kms (2510 miles) on the oil, which was ran for approx two months. I’m wondering if I should get it retested elsewhere or take it as gospel?

The oil was Mobil 1 5w30 ESP, metal #’s look fine and oil was still in grade but oxidation was 26, nitration 10 and sulphation 34, zero fuel dilution.

Just wondering.. When they do the tbn test, would it screw the results up if they used the wrong oil base tbn value which was higher (They used M1 5w30 EP as the could not find ESP)

I changed the oil at the time of collection of the sample.

thanks
 
Hey Mate,

Yeah that is correct in that Oz 98 RON is 50 ppm sulphur.

The M1 5W30 ESP is a low SAPS (0.6%), low TBN (~ 6.5) oil, here is an old VOA
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3119418
And here is a more recent UOA (The image is gone but still some info in the comments)
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4362718/1
In particular the TBN went from 6.46 to 2.1 in about 5k miles, you have done half that, so you should have ample TBN left.

M1 5W30 EP has more SAPS (0.8%) and more TBN (~ 9)
Here is a M1 0W20 EP VOA
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3339808/

But, yes after 4000 KM / 2500 miles on premium fuel, with a starting TBN of 6.5 for M1 5w30 ESP, I would expect about half of that TBN to still be there. It doesn't make sense to me that you have a zero TBN reading.

I would write to them and ask, they can probably sort it out fairly quickly for you.
 
Low saps oils are intended to be used with sulphur free gasoline/diesel... Here in EU where we have sulphur free gasoline/diesel it works...

For your country I would rather use A3/B4 or HDEO oil...it has stronger package
 
I find it hard to believe that TBN would be totally depleted after such a short run whatever the sulfur content of your fuel.
This sounds like a lab error or merely an absent number on your report where zero is the default value to me.
 
Agree with all the above, but I'd still get it sorted out. An actual TBN of zero is an indicator of something wrong ...

Did they do a TAN too?
 
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http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=Global_Comparison:_Fuels

1000px-Gas_sulfur_8_2.png
 
If the TBN was zero, there should be something else in the report that supports that, e.g. some sort of massive contamination. I would ask them to re-run it and/or perform TAN.
 
Thanks for all the comments.

I too thought that the low run would of been low enough to judge how this oil would be with its low tbn and the sulphur content etc, but it seems that I should of changed it sooner as per the UOA, unless they have stuffed up?

A person from the lab rang me while they were testing it and said they where concerned about the tbn, sulphation and oxidation of the oil and the conversation got on to the oil they tested it against and he said they used Mobil 1 EP 5w30 for the reference #’s for this sample for the TBN etc, which I pointed out it was ESP and not EP.. at which point the conversation seemed to be moved on, thinking about it now.
Which to me sounds like that could or may of stuffed the readings up by using the wrong data? Or am I just clutching at straws here? does anyone know if that would be the case? As I watched a video on you tube and it said that they need the reference # and tbn from a virgin sample of the same oil to input into the test equipment that spits out the tbn reading.


Thanks again
 
First off, there's no way that the TBN was that low in such low miles (kilometers). As you put it, they "stuffed up"
laugh.gif
comparing M1ESP to M1EP. If the oil was truly depleted of TBN and high in acid, there would likely be an uptick in wear metals due to corrosion.

If the lab doesn't use one of the ASTM methods (D4739 or D2896), then try another lab. Here in the U.S. we have a quick lube chain for semi trucks that uses an estimate for everything except the wear metals. Put a sample into a desk top machine, tell it what brand and grade of oil, the miles and voila....an estimated UOA. Not worth a dime to me. I'm not saying that the lab you used is anything like that but it isn't ideal.
 
Just updating this.

Well it turns out there was nothing to worry about.

I had them retest the TBN which came back still at 0.0 after I sent them a virgin sample and they claimed the VOA TBN was 9.4 from memory. I know that was untrue as according to Mobil its around 6.5.
mad.gif


I then sent a UOA to Blackstone and it came back at 4.0.

So needless to say these clowns wont be seeing any more of my money.

Anyone have any ideas how I could get a polaris test kit as OAI wont send me one.
frown.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: bigunz
Just updating this.

Well it turns out there was nothing to worry about.

I had them retest the TBN which came back still at 0.0 after I sent them a virgin sample and they claimed the VOA TBN was 9.4 from memory. I know that was untrue as according to Mobil its around 6.5.
mad.gif


I then sent a UOA to Blackstone and it came back at 4.0.

So needless to say these clowns wont be seeing any more of my money.

Anyone have any ideas how I could get a polaris test kit as OAI wont send me one.
frown.gif



Why do clowns always take the brunt of it?
smirk.gif
 
You sent a sample all the way to Blackstone in USA? I'm going to be trying Cav power's SOS lab for my UOA in November. I'll let you know how it goes. It's $37 or something with postage but I opted for just dropping it off and saving the $6-7.

Also, our 98 RON is meant to be 50ppm max yeah? I've read that from some places it can be far less than that.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I find it hard to believe that TBN would be totally depleted after such a short run whatever the sulfur content of your fuel.
This sounds like a lab error or merely an absent number on your report where zero is the default value to me.


Or someone screwed up the ad package added to the oil?
 
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I find it hard to believe that TBN would be totally depleted after such a short run whatever the sulfur content of your fuel.
This sounds like a lab error or merely an absent number on your report where zero is the default value to me.

Or someone screwed up the ad package added to the oil?

That is highly unlikely, each lot from a production run would have been quality tested and its impossible for any one bottle from that lot to be deficient. It's much more likely that the lab that performed the analysis has for some reason reported the wrong number, especially since he's already stated that another lab reported a different and much more reasonable number.

It would be helpful if the OP would post an image of the actual lab report so everything could be seen in context.
 
95% lab error.

Even the best labs in the world make human errors all the time. An example I frequently run into, the lab girl mixed up the sample she grabbed. not hard to do when you've been on your feet for 8 hours a day with safety glasses, fumes and that prison lighting. No human or social interaction, just numbers day in day out.

I have BN's retested every now and then if I suspect an error.

Lab numbers almost all labs use, ex.

2026879
2026878
2026877
2026876
2026875
2026674
2026873
2026872
2026871
2026870
2026869
2026868

Anyone catch the mistake?
 
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