Seeking body shop advice re: fixing bad clearcoat

[dparm]

Long story made short, but my rear bumper had to get touched up due to a scuff. I took it to a shop that I had used numerous times without any issues. They repainted the scuff and blended it in, and advised that the entire bumper should get re-clearcoated so things would look consistent (he was worried that as the paint ages, the OEM clearcoat would look different from his).

Unfortunately, I learned the hard way that this shop's work has gone way down hill. I got the car back and the clearcoat had fish eyes, dust, two runs, and inconsistent coverage. It looks like a combination of contamination and poor finishing. I went back twice to have them try and fix it, but it still looks bad. At this point, I do not want them touching the car ever again.

I visited four local shops that all came recommended from fellow Corvette Forum members and received very different answers and quotes on how to fix it. I've received a range of answers from just sanding and respraying clearcoat all the way to replacing the entire bumper cover. I am very skeptical of any mention of fresh paint since matching will always be a gamble.

Can anyone shed some light on whether or not any of these guys are taking me for a ride? I just want this fixed so the bumper looks like it wasn't shoddily painted.



Shop 1: Ferrari-certified, considered the best in the area
-skeptical of being able to simply fix the clearcoat
-hard for them to tell what's involved because "we don't know what this other guy did"
-strong possibility of having to repaint the whole bumper
-works on time & materials so estimation is very rough
-ballparked price of $1500, could end up going much higher


Shop 2: reputable shop that has worked on lots of Corvettes, owner has had several himself
-has worked on C7s
-said they'd just sand the clearcoat and respray it, no need to touch perfectly good paint
-works on book time plus the extra prep work needed
-quoted price of $1350


Shop 3: well-regarded shop that turns out Concours cars
-has never worked on a C7, but has worked on older Corvettes
-would try a quick-fix of wet sanding and filling in the fish eyes
-advised that if the quick fix didn't work, it would turn into a very involved job
-won't guarantee the work since it's "not his paint"
-quoted price of $1850


Shop 4: large Corvette shop with award-winning show car paint work
-doesn't like working on anything with fisheye since it can be tough to know if the original contaminant is gone (might lead to redoing it multiple times)
-advised that replacing the bumper cover and starting fresh might just be the best bet
-was upfront about this being a pricey job since they work on time & materials
-quoted price of $2600 if they have to replace the bumper cover

 

[raytseng]

i think all 4 were upfront. but its impossible to know what are your standards and how much the money means to you.

if you dont care about the 1000, and want it absolutely perfect then go with the 2600 one.

otherwise go with the 1350 or 1500 shop.

 

[pandus13]

i think stevesrt8 and trav are your first start in advising.....

[off-topic]
i know you are #@#$#$ about the scuff + following repair,
but
how big is your smile when you drive this beauty?

...and what's HER name?
[/off-topic]

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: pandus13
i think stevesrt8 and trav are your first start in advising.....

[off-topic]
i know you are #@#$#$ about the scuff + following repair,
but
how big is your smile when you drive this beauty?

...and what's HER name?
[/off-topic]



I don't name my cars, but it is an absolute riot to drive (even around town)!

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
i think all 4 were upfront. but its impossible to know what are your standards and how much the money means to you.

if you dont care about the 1000, and want it absolutely perfect then go with the 2600 one.

otherwise go with the 1350 or 1500 shop.



My standards are that I don't want it to look like it was painted. I understand that it will NEVER look the same as the factory, but anyone who gets within 10 feet of the rear bumper can see the problems.

It's a case of diminishing returns: does the $2600 job look twice as good as the $1350 job? I doubt it, but what is bugging me the most is how there is such a huge range of assessments here. If I got the same answers from 3 of the 4, then I'd know the course of action.

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: raytseng
i think all 4 were upfront. but its impossible to know what are your standards and how much the money means to you.

if you dont care about the 1000, and want it absolutely perfect then go with the 2600 one.

otherwise go with the 1350 or 1500 shop.



My standards are that I don't want it to look like it was painted. I understand that it will NEVER look the same as the factory, but anyone who gets within 10 feet of the rear bumper can see the problems.

It's a case of diminishing returns: does the $2600 job look twice as good as the $1350 job? I doubt it, but what is bugging me the most is how there is such a huge range of assessments here. If I got the same answers from 3 of the 4, then I'd know the course of action.

i would choose the guy with show standards.....

would a new bumper saga (#4) set you up/cost you a lot?

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: raytseng
i think all 4 were upfront. but its impossible to know what are your standards and how much the money means to you.

if you dont care about the 1000, and want it absolutely perfect then go with the 2600 one.

otherwise go with the 1350 or 1500 shop.



My standards are that I don't want it to look like it was painted. I understand that it will NEVER look the same as the factory, but anyone who gets within 10 feet of the rear bumper can see the problems.

It's a case of diminishing returns: does the $2600 job look twice as good as the $1350 job? I doubt it, but what is bugging me the most is how there is such a huge range of assessments here. If I got the same answers from 3 of the 4, then I'd know the course of action.


The issue is that once you have re-clearcoated the bumper, the texture usually does not fully match the rest of the car anyway. So, it is already obvious to a trained eye that something has happened.

At this point I would probably start fresh.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: pandus13
i would choose the guy with show standards.....


would a new bumper saga (#4) set you up/cost you a lot?



As I said, it would be $2600 which is way above everyone else, and introduces the additional risk of color matching. The design of the rear bumper is such that it has a large vertical surface on the side of the car directly adjacent to the rear fender:

(this car has a body kit, but you can see the bumper edge on the rear quarter)

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: The Critic

The issue is that once you have re-clearcoated the bumper, the texture usually does not fully match the rest of the car anyway. So, it is already obvious to a trained eye that something has happened.

At this point I would probably start fresh.


I can probably live with a very slight difference in the clearcoat texture, but things like fish eye/runs/dust/tape lines/missing clearcoat are blatantly obvious. The car is going to get ceramic coated anyway.

Are you getting at the issue of how OEM paint is typically a bit orange peeled but aftermarket stuff rarely is?

 

[Rolla07]

The most legit seems to be the Shop #2 option. Do you have a picture of the "scuff"? I suppose it depends on what it looks like/ how bad it is.

 

[Sierrasik]

Clearcoat is very sandable.There should be no problem resanding the clear.A good painter can actually match factory orange peel to a certain extent.I say #2 if you have faith in his shop. Sweet Ride!

 

[turtlevette]

I'm curious. What did the existing fix cost.

If I'm not mistaken concours top flight means dull looking lacquer and over spray. Like they did at the factory.

I'm wondering how many hours to replace the bumper. And how that compares to the number of hours they'll have to sand the existing bumper.

They'll just spray a new bumper in minutes vs spending 10 or more hours sanding the old. That's where the cost savings come in.

A couple of ideas if you want to save some money

1. Attempt to wet sand the clear and take it in for a re-clear. You can scrape the runs with a razor blade held at a 90 degree angle. After the reclear wetsand with 2000 and buff.

2. Purchase a bumper from gm. Take it to the shop to have it painted. Install and wetsand yourself. Sell old bumper on CF to recoup some money. Again you can wetsand and buff to save money.

 

[Mr Nice]

Can you post a picture?

Unfortunately new cars do get damaged eventually.

 

[Trav]

This to me sounds right.

Quote:
Shop 1: Ferrari-certified, considered the best in the area
-skeptical of being able to simply fix the clearcoat
-hard for them to tell what's involved because "we don't know what this other guy did"
-strong possibility of having to repaint the whole bumper
-works on time & materials so estimation is very rough
-ballparked price of $1500, could end up going much higher


The problem is when the scuff was repaired did they prep the plastic properly ad use the correct materials for plastic? You have no idea, I have no idea and neither does another shop.
Even if they did and you just sand the clear down and re-shoot it the paint is getting thicker which isn't the best thing on flexible plastics. You could sand it down to the original basecoat, redo the scuff job all the way down to the plastic blend it properly and re-clear and it should be fine.

You want this done off the car of course so at that point I would use a plastic bumper stripper (special for flexible parts), prime it with a special primer just for bumpers, it adheres so strongly you can hit it with a pressure washer and remove the base coat but not the primer from the plastic so now you have a good base to with. This prep work can get expensive on the labor so a new OE cover might well be cheaper, if the difference isn't much go new and toss the old one in A Holes yard.

Now you need a real good painter (not some jomoke right out of trade school) who uses a spay out panel before shooting the color you don't want to get into blending on the rear quarters and deck lid god forbid. If its a tricky color you might do half a dozen or more spray outs to find the match and air pressure.
Shooting the clear can be difficult, you need to read the texture and determine which gun and tip size to use, most of this stuff is done by feel.

For German cars especially the older ones I use a SATA HVLP with a 1.4 tip, it can duplicate the finish on Most American and newer Japanes cars I use an Iwata Bellaria reduced pressure gun with a 1.3 not HVLP at about 20-23 psi to produce an very smooth finish with very slight texture turn it up to 26 and your almost spraying liquid glass.
The quality of the clear is paramount and most shops will not use these very expensive clears, the less expensive clears and even psi can significantly alter the color shade no matter how well it matches. If you ever noticed some Japanese cars in particular have bumpers that are a slightly different shade, the paint color comes from a different batch and the psi may not be exactly what the car was sprayed with.
These are produced much of time off site and not with the car leaving the painter with a real dilemma, do you match the body color perfectly or the OE bumper, if you match the body the other bumper and plastic panels will stick out like a sore thumb.

Go to this shop and tell them to do it right and you wont accept anything less than perfect, if you can tell it has been painted its unacceptable and be prepared to pay the price because its gong to cost.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

I'm wondering how many hours to replace the bumper. And how that compares to the number of hours they'll have to sand the existing bumper.

They'll just spray a new bumper in minutes vs spending 10 or more hours sanding the old. That's where the cost savings come in.



This is basically what the guy at shop #4 said -- prepping and repainting that bumper is a LOT of labor (at nearly $90/hr) so if you can get a new bumper for $820, it's probably going to give better results for almost the same money. It's not as simple as just "spray the new bumper and install it", they will need to spend time matching everything. It's a deep blue metallic, not a basic non-metallic white.



Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Can you post a picture?


Not really. It's tough to photograph, but all four of the shops saw it and instantly knew it was sloppy work by someone else. One of them commented, "did they even paint this in a booth?"

 

[SatinSilver]

Hmmm, how much did the first shop charge? Did you pay by credit card? You might be able to dispute the charge or get it cut way down.

I'd do a search on each shop for reviews, no only yelp but google etc...Not that's fool proof. Also look on bbb.org for any complaints against the shop. If you're coming to Cleveland any time soon I have a great shop that's state of the art with a lifetime guarantee on their work.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Trav
This to me sounds right.

Quote:
Shop 1: Ferrari-certified, considered the best in the area
-skeptical of being able to simply fix the clearcoat
-hard for them to tell what's involved because "we don't know what this other guy did"
-strong possibility of having to repaint the whole bumper
-works on time & materials so estimation is very rough
-ballparked price of $1500, could end up going much higher





Thanks, Trav. When I emailed that shop with some questions to clarify the quote, they replied:


I would suggest that we use the existing bumper, unless it does not test well for good adhesion. At that point, we can discuss if full bumper replacement would be necessary. The estimate I sent you is for removing the rear bumper, sanding out the paint defects and repainting, hopefully using as little color or no color, and re-clear coating the rear bumper. As we discussed, it is possible more work may be needed, and or bumper replacement may be needed. We can determine that after disassembly.


I think I made it pretty clear to everyone that I want it done right. I will gladly pay for good work, but I do not want to be taken for a ride at $90/hr where they suddenly call me and say it'll be another $2,000 and wait a month for it to be finished. However, I understand that they have very little information to go on and don't want to get screwed by making too many assumptions.

They're basically the "hybrid solution": try to keep it simple and avoid the atomic option unless absolutely necessary.

Anything else I should consider, ask about, or look into? Anything else I could provide you to give an unbiased opinion?

 

[Trav]

That's about it, tell them you want the very best clear and base coat, eg if they use Dupont (now Axalta) you want chroma premier not Chroma base, basically whatever paint provider they use their top shelf product on this car.
Don't get me wrong Chroma base (I am patial to Dupont but its not the be all and end all by any means) is very good but the premier uses more pigment, OE size, shape and color metallic and its more color accurate ditto the stuff from other producers. Its a non issue if your painting the whole car but your not.

They sound like a decent place, they are taking the right attitude about the job by treating it as a lot of unknowns and not locking themselves in to a price point on this job, they just cant and we know that. I did a GM trunk one time that was for all intents and purposes a little blend job, well holy $h!t once I started sanding the paint just peeled right off.
I didn't need to strip it air pressure from a blow nozzle did that, just like a new unpainted trunk lid it even blew the e-coat away. Things happen.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Trav
That's about it, tell them you want the very best clear and base coat, eg if they use Dupont (now Axalta) you want chroma premier not Chroma base, basically whatever paint provider they use their top shelf product on this car.
Don't get me wrong Chroma base (I am patial to Dupont but its not the be all and end all by any means) is very good but the premier uses more pigment, OE size, shape and color metallic and its more color accurate ditto the stuff from other producers. Its a non issue if your painting the whole car but your not.

They sound like a decent place, they are taking the right attitude about the job by treating it as a lot of unknowns and not locking themselves in to a price point on this job, they just cant and we know that. I did a GM trunk one time that was for all intents and purposes a little blend job, well holy $h!t once I started sanding the paint just peeled right off.
I didn't need to strip it air pressure from a blow nozzle did that, just like a new unpainted trunk lid it even blew the e-coat away. Things happen.



Thanks.

Do you think there's something to be said for the shop that just wants to replace the bumper cover outright? I feel like I will not get any surprises when the bill comes due, but it introduces a lot of risk with paint matching (they admitted it will be a tough color to match). What about their attitude towards fisheyes? Is there any truth to their notion that "we don't even know if we can get the contaminants off?"

Any perspective on shops that do/don't have experience working on a specific car? My gut tells me that good paint work is good paint work, regardless of the make or model. I suppose if you've worked on a Corvette before you might know the tricks at getting things taken apart a bit faster.

 

[Trav]

Painting is not vehicle specific you either can do it well or you cant. Its easy to tell where the fisheyes are, if they are in the clear they will sand out as soon as you hit the base coat, if in the base coat you can go all the way down to the plastic.
Generally if they are in the clear the fisheye will be paint color with a crater in the clear only if in the base coat it will show primer or plastic color. They can in general be sanded out and prepsol will cure that issue but whats under the base cat they fixed remains an unknown.

Unless I could see how bad it is I personally would be very reluctant to scrap a perfectly good plastic part for paint defects unless it needed to be totally stripped then its only a question of labor, the old otherwise undamaged part will sell quickly as used paint defect and all.