Is there any true "Sulfur free" synthetic oils out there?
sulfur free Oil
- Thread starter Wick
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Linctex
What is the effect?
Sulfur turns to Acid hence pitting .
What is the effect?
Sulfur turns to Acid hence pitting .
Originally Posted By: eljefino
How little sulfur do you want? Pretty much everything has it out, to a pretty good degree of purity.
Ideally none, it's part of that ZDDP package I do believe,
How little sulfur do you want? Pretty much everything has it out, to a pretty good degree of purity.
Ideally none, it's part of that ZDDP package I do believe,
Go to the PQIA website. You can peruse all their VOAs, and I can't think of any that are sulfur free off the top of my head. The limit is 5000 ppm. Of course, most data sheets don't report sulfur. I also don't know if other specifications beyond SN/GF-5 reduce sulfur limits, so that's another thing to consider. C3 and/or C4 probably reduce it from there.
Originally Posted By: Wick
Originally Posted By: eljefino
How little sulfur do you want? Pretty much everything has it out, to a pretty good degree of purity.
Ideally none, it's part of that ZDDP package I do believe,
It is indeed in the "thio" part of ZDDP. I haven't seen data on ZDDP => Acid in the crankcase. Can you share the chemistry you're seeing?
Originally Posted By: eljefino
How little sulfur do you want? Pretty much everything has it out, to a pretty good degree of purity.
Ideally none, it's part of that ZDDP package I do believe,
It is indeed in the "thio" part of ZDDP. I haven't seen data on ZDDP => Acid in the crankcase. Can you share the chemistry you're seeing?
"...
GTL products are colourless and odourless. They contain almost none of the impurities – sulphur, aromatics and nitrogen – that are found in crude oil.
..."
http://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/natural-gas/gas-to-liquids.html
GTL products are colourless and odourless. They contain almost none of the impurities – sulphur, aromatics and nitrogen – that are found in crude oil.
..."
http://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/natural-gas/gas-to-liquids.html
But that is only a base oil, not a finished lubricant - a base oil needs additives to convert it to a finished modern lubricant. And additives are suspended in mineral oil for solubility.
Maybe some of the API SA oils PQIA tests could be nearly sulfur free if they were formulated with synthetic base oils, but then where's the market for a API SA oil with a synthetic price tag? Not the discount dollar type stores.
Maybe some of the API SA oils PQIA tests could be nearly sulfur free if they were formulated with synthetic base oils, but then where's the market for a API SA oil with a synthetic price tag? Not the discount dollar type stores.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: Wick
Originally Posted By: eljefino
How little sulfur do you want? Pretty much everything has it out, to a pretty good degree of purity.
Ideally none, it's part of that ZDDP package I do believe,
It is indeed in the "thio" part of ZDDP. I haven't seen data on ZDDP => Acid in the crankcase. Can you share the chemistry you're seeing?
Just my thoughts, Sulfur wont turn to Sulfuric acid when it gets Hot? Plus I was thinking about Sulfated Ash, I want a great burn if it gets by my 2 catch cans from the PCVs
Originally Posted By: Wick
Originally Posted By: eljefino
How little sulfur do you want? Pretty much everything has it out, to a pretty good degree of purity.
Ideally none, it's part of that ZDDP package I do believe,
It is indeed in the "thio" part of ZDDP. I haven't seen data on ZDDP => Acid in the crankcase. Can you share the chemistry you're seeing?
Just my thoughts, Sulfur wont turn to Sulfuric acid when it gets Hot? Plus I was thinking about Sulfated Ash, I want a great burn if it gets by my 2 catch cans from the PCVs
Last edited:
Hopefully the the rest of the Additive package will conteract or resist the damage that Sulfur could do
The sulfur in ZDDP is bound to other atoms. Another example would be moly additives which also contain sulfur atoms bound in their composition.
We all know eggs contain sulfur -rotten eggs give off hydrogen sulfide gas. But does an egg turn into sulfuric acid when its hard boiled?
We all know eggs contain sulfur -rotten eggs give off hydrogen sulfide gas. But does an egg turn into sulfuric acid when its hard boiled?
Originally Posted By: Wick
Originally Posted By: Linctex
What is the effect?
Sulfur turns to Acid hence pitting .
Sulfur dioxide (in the presence of water) from the products of combustion will make sulfuric acid. It comes from the fuel which is why there is a push for low-sulfur gasoline. The combustion byproducts of oil are minuscule compared to those from the fuel.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
What is the effect?
Sulfur turns to Acid hence pitting .
Sulfur dioxide (in the presence of water) from the products of combustion will make sulfuric acid. It comes from the fuel which is why there is a push for low-sulfur gasoline. The combustion byproducts of oil are minuscule compared to those from the fuel.
Wick,
I think you are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 357.
Yes, burning sulphur-containing hydrocarbons will form sulphur oxides, which, if condensed with water (also a product of combustion) will form diluted, weak sulphurous acid. It generally won't form metal eating concentrated sulphuric acid. Now traditionally, the biggest source of Sulphur for your engine has been gasoline itself. Today, virtually all sulphur has been removed from gasoline (I think the official limit is 10 ppm max).
Now a properly designed engine burns fuel and should NOT routinely burn oil. You should ignore those siren messages from certain OEMs that duplicitously start with words 'all engines consume some oil' because it's just not true. Anyway, regardless of whether engines do or do not consume oil, I would say that all base oil used in US engine oil, be it conventional or synthetic, is essentially sulphur-free. Just remember that in crude terms, base oil makes up typically 90% of a fully formulated engine oil, so even if you do burn some oil, the biggest constituent of said oil does not contain Sulphur.
Okay what about additives in oil? Well VII polymer is typically sulphur free as are Ashless Dispersants as are both Phenolic & Aminic antioxidants. So in rough terms, of that 10% additive in oil, 6% is entirely sulphur-free.
Now over-based metallic detergents like Calcium & Magnesium Sulphonates & Phenates do contain some sulphur but in absolute terms, this is two tenths of bugger all. So of that 10% additive, 6% is entirely sulphur-free and say 2.5% contains so little sulphur it's not worth worrying about. So we're roughly up to 98.5% of your typical engine oil containing little of no sulphur.
Which brings us to ZDDP which typical exists as 1% in finished oil. ZDDP is the biggest source of Sulphur in US engine oil. All ZDDP starts it's life a Phosphorus Pentasulphide (P2S5). You react this with alcohol, you lose one of the sulphur atoms (to H2S) and react the resultant Thioacid with Zinc Oxide to form ZDDP. ZDDP always contain four sulphur atoms and two Phosphorus atoms. Conveniently this means if you have 800 ppm of Phosphorus in a GF-5 oil, you will have roughly 1600 ppm of Sulphur there too. So that's a mere 0.16 wt% sulphur in an oil that you shouldn't as a matter of course be burning.
One last thing. When oil formulators talk about controlling acid formation, they are invariably talking about the carboxylic acids that can result from the oxidation of base oils. These acids are sulphur-free.
I think you are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 357.
Yes, burning sulphur-containing hydrocarbons will form sulphur oxides, which, if condensed with water (also a product of combustion) will form diluted, weak sulphurous acid. It generally won't form metal eating concentrated sulphuric acid. Now traditionally, the biggest source of Sulphur for your engine has been gasoline itself. Today, virtually all sulphur has been removed from gasoline (I think the official limit is 10 ppm max).
Now a properly designed engine burns fuel and should NOT routinely burn oil. You should ignore those siren messages from certain OEMs that duplicitously start with words 'all engines consume some oil' because it's just not true. Anyway, regardless of whether engines do or do not consume oil, I would say that all base oil used in US engine oil, be it conventional or synthetic, is essentially sulphur-free. Just remember that in crude terms, base oil makes up typically 90% of a fully formulated engine oil, so even if you do burn some oil, the biggest constituent of said oil does not contain Sulphur.
Okay what about additives in oil? Well VII polymer is typically sulphur free as are Ashless Dispersants as are both Phenolic & Aminic antioxidants. So in rough terms, of that 10% additive in oil, 6% is entirely sulphur-free.
Now over-based metallic detergents like Calcium & Magnesium Sulphonates & Phenates do contain some sulphur but in absolute terms, this is two tenths of bugger all. So of that 10% additive, 6% is entirely sulphur-free and say 2.5% contains so little sulphur it's not worth worrying about. So we're roughly up to 98.5% of your typical engine oil containing little of no sulphur.
Which brings us to ZDDP which typical exists as 1% in finished oil. ZDDP is the biggest source of Sulphur in US engine oil. All ZDDP starts it's life a Phosphorus Pentasulphide (P2S5). You react this with alcohol, you lose one of the sulphur atoms (to H2S) and react the resultant Thioacid with Zinc Oxide to form ZDDP. ZDDP always contain four sulphur atoms and two Phosphorus atoms. Conveniently this means if you have 800 ppm of Phosphorus in a GF-5 oil, you will have roughly 1600 ppm of Sulphur there too. So that's a mere 0.16 wt% sulphur in an oil that you shouldn't as a matter of course be burning.
One last thing. When oil formulators talk about controlling acid formation, they are invariably talking about the carboxylic acids that can result from the oxidation of base oils. These acids are sulphur-free.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Wick,
I think you are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 357.
Yes, burning sulphur-containing hydrocarbons will form sulphur oxides, which, if condensed with water (also a product of combustion) will form diluted, weak sulphurous acid. It generally won't form metal eating concentrated sulphuric acid. Now traditionally, the biggest source of Sulphur for your engine has been gasoline itself. Today, virtually all sulphur has been removed from gasoline (I think the official limit is 10 ppm max).
Now a properly designed engine burns fuel and should NOT routinely burn oil. You should ignore those siren messages from certain OEMs that duplicitously start with words 'all engines consume some oil' because it's just not true. Anyway, regardless of whether engines do or do not consume oil, I would say that all base oil used in US engine oil, be it conventional or synthetic, is essentially sulphur-free. Just remember that in crude terms, base oil makes up typically 90% of a fully formulated engine oil, so even if you do burn some oil, the biggest constituent of said oil does not contain Sulphur.
Okay what about additives in oil? Well VII polymer is typically sulphur free as are Ashless Dispersants as are both Phenolic & Aminic antioxidants. So in rough terms, of that 10% additive in oil, 6% is entirely sulphur-free.
Now over-based metallic detergents like Calcium & Magnesium Sulphonates & Phenates do contain some sulphur but in absolute terms, this is two tenths of bugger all. So of that 10% additive, 6% is entirely sulphur-free and say 2.5% contains so little sulphur it's not worth worrying about. So we're roughly up to 98.5% of your typical engine oil containing little of no sulphur.
Which brings us to ZDDP which typical exists as 1% in finished oil. ZDDP is the biggest source of Sulphur in US engine oil. All ZDDP starts it's life a Phosphorus Pentasulphide (P2S5). You react this with alcohol, you lose one of the sulphur atoms (to H2S) and react the resultant Thioacid with Zinc Oxide to form ZDDP. ZDDP always contain four sulphur atoms and two Phosphorus atoms. Conveniently this means if you have 800 ppm of Phosphorus in a GF-5 oil, you will have roughly 1600 ppm of Sulphur there too. So that's a mere 0.16 wt% sulphur in an oil that you shouldn't as a matter of course be burning.
One last thing. When oil formulators talk about controlling acid formation, they are invariably talking about the carboxylic acids that can result from the oxidation of base oils. These acids are sulphur-free.
First of all thanks for that break down it is appreciated. Now I feel better,
my 5w20 Eneos is not a slouch of an oil with a sulfur content of .17 % . With great other numbers too .
I switch from Amsoil signature series after doing my homework. And this explanation of yours makes it confirmed
Wick,
I think you are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 357.
Yes, burning sulphur-containing hydrocarbons will form sulphur oxides, which, if condensed with water (also a product of combustion) will form diluted, weak sulphurous acid. It generally won't form metal eating concentrated sulphuric acid. Now traditionally, the biggest source of Sulphur for your engine has been gasoline itself. Today, virtually all sulphur has been removed from gasoline (I think the official limit is 10 ppm max).
Now a properly designed engine burns fuel and should NOT routinely burn oil. You should ignore those siren messages from certain OEMs that duplicitously start with words 'all engines consume some oil' because it's just not true. Anyway, regardless of whether engines do or do not consume oil, I would say that all base oil used in US engine oil, be it conventional or synthetic, is essentially sulphur-free. Just remember that in crude terms, base oil makes up typically 90% of a fully formulated engine oil, so even if you do burn some oil, the biggest constituent of said oil does not contain Sulphur.
Okay what about additives in oil? Well VII polymer is typically sulphur free as are Ashless Dispersants as are both Phenolic & Aminic antioxidants. So in rough terms, of that 10% additive in oil, 6% is entirely sulphur-free.
Now over-based metallic detergents like Calcium & Magnesium Sulphonates & Phenates do contain some sulphur but in absolute terms, this is two tenths of bugger all. So of that 10% additive, 6% is entirely sulphur-free and say 2.5% contains so little sulphur it's not worth worrying about. So we're roughly up to 98.5% of your typical engine oil containing little of no sulphur.
Which brings us to ZDDP which typical exists as 1% in finished oil. ZDDP is the biggest source of Sulphur in US engine oil. All ZDDP starts it's life a Phosphorus Pentasulphide (P2S5). You react this with alcohol, you lose one of the sulphur atoms (to H2S) and react the resultant Thioacid with Zinc Oxide to form ZDDP. ZDDP always contain four sulphur atoms and two Phosphorus atoms. Conveniently this means if you have 800 ppm of Phosphorus in a GF-5 oil, you will have roughly 1600 ppm of Sulphur there too. So that's a mere 0.16 wt% sulphur in an oil that you shouldn't as a matter of course be burning.
One last thing. When oil formulators talk about controlling acid formation, they are invariably talking about the carboxylic acids that can result from the oxidation of base oils. These acids are sulphur-free.
First of all thanks for that break down it is appreciated. Now I feel better,
my 5w20 Eneos is not a slouch of an oil with a sulfur content of .17 % . With great other numbers too .
I switch from Amsoil signature series after doing my homework. And this explanation of yours makes it confirmed
Just one last comment...
You have probably read on BITOG how US engine oils are now primarily blended from Group II/II+ base oils. Unlike old fashioned Group I base oils, these contain almost no sulphur, no nitrogen and very little by way of aromatics.
The irony of all this is that modern US oils positively crave a bit of 'extra' sulphur and aromatics! A bit of extra sulphur in the oil does wonders for deposit formation while a splosh of additional aromatics is excellent for keeping additives and extraeous gunk in solution.
Refining Group II base oils has evolved over time into a three-stage process; Hydrocracking, Isodexaxing & Hydrofinishing. The first two steps do the lion's share of the conversion work. The third step is a final trim to improve the colour of the base oil and knock out any residual aromatics and sulphur.
It's always struck me that the people who designed this process have never ever gone through the ball-ache of trying to formulate a finished engine oil. If they had, they might have sussed that the final Hydrofinishing step makes the base oil worse, not better.
This is what happens when you get narrowly focused on specification numbers, as opposed to what's actually needed.
You have probably read on BITOG how US engine oils are now primarily blended from Group II/II+ base oils. Unlike old fashioned Group I base oils, these contain almost no sulphur, no nitrogen and very little by way of aromatics.
The irony of all this is that modern US oils positively crave a bit of 'extra' sulphur and aromatics! A bit of extra sulphur in the oil does wonders for deposit formation while a splosh of additional aromatics is excellent for keeping additives and extraeous gunk in solution.
Refining Group II base oils has evolved over time into a three-stage process; Hydrocracking, Isodexaxing & Hydrofinishing. The first two steps do the lion's share of the conversion work. The third step is a final trim to improve the colour of the base oil and knock out any residual aromatics and sulphur.
It's always struck me that the people who designed this process have never ever gone through the ball-ache of trying to formulate a finished engine oil. If they had, they might have sussed that the final Hydrofinishing step makes the base oil worse, not better.
This is what happens when you get narrowly focused on specification numbers, as opposed to what's actually needed.
Well said ! Thank you for clearing my question up.
Hi,
I got your PM but I'll put my comments here so that other BITOG'ers can read them as well.
First, let me go back to your original question which was are there any sulphur-free oils out there? My original thought was no but maybe I was wrong. I have been reading up on these ENEOS Sustina oils. It looks like these oils contain Zinc Alkyl Phosphate (ZP) as the primary anti-wear additive, not conventional ZDDP. This is sort of obvious from the VOA of Sustina 0W20 I found on BITOG because the oil's Zinc content (489 ppm) is significantly lower that the Phosphorus content (601 ppm). With ZDDP, Zn is always higher than P.
ZP contains no sulphur in its structure so in theory, these oils could potentially be sulphur-free. However, you'll notice I'm being careful with my language. Unless I've missed something, ENEOS don't actually claim that their oils are sulphur-free. All they say is they use a sulphur-free anti-wear. It's doubly odd that ENEOS's own PDSs don't quote a sulphur content because if you're going to bang the drum about sulphur-free anti-wear, you would think they would provide definitive proof of the oil containing no sulphur in the supporting blurb!
I had a long think about this and I'm not altogether sure I like the thought of replacing ZDDP with ZP. Now ENEOS's oil are fully approved to GF-5 so I'm 100% sure the oil has passed all the requisite tests. However, any oil formulator worth his salt knows that tests only tell you so much and importantly they don't relate to what happens in the real world.
The thing is we know a lot about ZDDP as it's been around since the 1940s. We know it's a good universal anti-wear. We know it's a good antioxidant. We know it's good for high temperature deposits. One of the less well known properties is just what a great additive it is for load bearing (try comparing something like Moly & ZDDP on a highly loaded FZG rig and you quickly get an appreciation of just what a clever additive ZDDP is!). And let's not forget the truly great thing about ZDDP; it's easy and dirt cheap to make! Does ZP do all this? ENEOS don't really tell us. They only stress the 'sulphuric acid' angle which TBH is all a bit bogus anyway.
My overall personal opinion is that I would steer well clear of this stuff as there's potentially a lot to lose and not a lot to gain.
Regarding your second question, I haven't come across this Archoil 'Nano-tech' additive before so can't give you any definitive answers. However there was a recent thread about a Nulon oil claiming it had 'Nano-tech'. I did a bit of Googling and it seems Exxon has a patent on dispersing graphene particles in oil so this idea does have some basis in fact. However I am a bit of a sceptic. Graphene costs an arm and a leg. The amount you could ever afford to put in a cheap commodity like engine oil would be miniscule and if that's the case, is it really doing anything? I suspect the honest answer is not a lot.
I got your PM but I'll put my comments here so that other BITOG'ers can read them as well.
First, let me go back to your original question which was are there any sulphur-free oils out there? My original thought was no but maybe I was wrong. I have been reading up on these ENEOS Sustina oils. It looks like these oils contain Zinc Alkyl Phosphate (ZP) as the primary anti-wear additive, not conventional ZDDP. This is sort of obvious from the VOA of Sustina 0W20 I found on BITOG because the oil's Zinc content (489 ppm) is significantly lower that the Phosphorus content (601 ppm). With ZDDP, Zn is always higher than P.
ZP contains no sulphur in its structure so in theory, these oils could potentially be sulphur-free. However, you'll notice I'm being careful with my language. Unless I've missed something, ENEOS don't actually claim that their oils are sulphur-free. All they say is they use a sulphur-free anti-wear. It's doubly odd that ENEOS's own PDSs don't quote a sulphur content because if you're going to bang the drum about sulphur-free anti-wear, you would think they would provide definitive proof of the oil containing no sulphur in the supporting blurb!
I had a long think about this and I'm not altogether sure I like the thought of replacing ZDDP with ZP. Now ENEOS's oil are fully approved to GF-5 so I'm 100% sure the oil has passed all the requisite tests. However, any oil formulator worth his salt knows that tests only tell you so much and importantly they don't relate to what happens in the real world.
The thing is we know a lot about ZDDP as it's been around since the 1940s. We know it's a good universal anti-wear. We know it's a good antioxidant. We know it's good for high temperature deposits. One of the less well known properties is just what a great additive it is for load bearing (try comparing something like Moly & ZDDP on a highly loaded FZG rig and you quickly get an appreciation of just what a clever additive ZDDP is!). And let's not forget the truly great thing about ZDDP; it's easy and dirt cheap to make! Does ZP do all this? ENEOS don't really tell us. They only stress the 'sulphuric acid' angle which TBH is all a bit bogus anyway.
My overall personal opinion is that I would steer well clear of this stuff as there's potentially a lot to lose and not a lot to gain.
Regarding your second question, I haven't come across this Archoil 'Nano-tech' additive before so can't give you any definitive answers. However there was a recent thread about a Nulon oil claiming it had 'Nano-tech'. I did a bit of Googling and it seems Exxon has a patent on dispersing graphene particles in oil so this idea does have some basis in fact. However I am a bit of a sceptic. Graphene costs an arm and a leg. The amount you could ever afford to put in a cheap commodity like engine oil would be miniscule and if that's the case, is it really doing anything? I suspect the honest answer is not a lot.
After two tanks of fuel I've noticed a 1/2 mpg gain doing the same ride every day consciously driving the same every day ... does it run cooler? I don't know, just a gauge. sounds better though. I'm running the Regular Eneos 5w20 now too, 8 quarts with 200ml of Archoil 9100
- Status
Similar threads
