Old record players

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
OK, I have been a supporter and a contributor to AudioKarma for a couple of decades, I guess ... Back in the early 1970's I worked for GRT/Chess/Janus Records (and Tapes) as a technician. I've been in this game for a while

Mostly I hang out in the Turntable Forum because that's where folks chat about playing records (LP's, 45's, Shellac's, etc.). What we collectively have come to realize is that there are really three parts to the vinyl equation.

Part one is the TT. You have experienced that a bit. The job of the TT is to spin the record at the appropriate speed w/o variation, not add any platter harmonics, and support the tone arm. Many think the tone arm should be discussed as integral with the TT, but that is not necessarily so...

The second part of the vinyl equation is the cartridge. Or, more specifically the stylus. The stylus may have the biggest role in digging all the "data" out of a groove ... But, it can also have a huge effect by dredging up old bottom dirt, cigarette tars, dust bunny's, etc. AND, it can have a huge effect on sound in its own right (bright, mellow, dull, etc.). The suspension can have a great deal to do with tracking and the like...

The third part of the equation is the phono stage, or phono amp. If you are running a receiver, it's likely built in. But in actual A-B testing by me and lots of others among all sorts of built-in and external phono stages, it can be proven that there is a another huge difference to be had here. No matter how much signal/data gets extracted from the groove, some will be lost in the phono stage. It's just the nature of electronics. Tiny signal, big amplification factor, something will get stepped on. Could be the highs, could be the bass, prolly will be the detail and nuance.

So we roughly break these three areas into equal cost regions. Just like BITOG'ers, there is endless discussion about what is most important. Most agree, it's the vinyl mastering and pressing, then catridge/stylus, then phono stage, then TT.

You can get an amazing amount of music out of a modest TT with a good cartridge/stylus (that works well with the tone arm on hand ...), and a pretty decent phono stage. Of course, you can get more out of a top dollar rig. But the value return curve starts to flatten out pretty significantly at around roughly $300 for each element.

If anyone is interested, I can supply a pretty good discussion of all this in the Phono Stage A-B Comparo Doc I compiled a few years back. Lots of tricks, hints and background info for anyone pursuing a vinyl hobby. Just PM me with a real outside email address, and I'll send it along.



What are your thoughts on a PS Audio pre-amp with phono stage? As I mentioned in the OP, I'm just using the integrated one in my DENON receiver, which is a good receiver, but I think the PS Audio piece may have actually been more expensive.

 

[sleddriver]

I agree with a lot of what BrocLuno wrote. Good thinking there.

• Any TT needs to be mechanically aligned (set-up). That includes geometry. Test records used to be common. Also, they need to be on a non-resonant platform and in a non-resonant location in your listening room. Why? They are very, very sensitive to acoustical feedback once the volume is turned up.
  .
• Cartridge alignment & geometry is also critical...and fussy on some set-ups. Remember, we're dealing with a very light electro-mechanical transducer here. The test records really helped here.
  .
• Cables are also important but not for all the fu-fu reasons...for their capacitance in pFs. That little itty-bitty cartridge likes to be electrically loaded in a certain way to get the best sound.
  .
• A great phono-stage with a very, very low noise amp and accurate RIAA eq curve will greatly affect what you hear. After all the PS has many tasks to perform and it must do them all very well....and very quietly..with very, very low error & distorsion. This is why the very high-end PS are either run from batteries or with external power supplies.
  .
• You need a really clean record...and a dry groove. Playing after saturating is a no-no. The best cleaner I've seen was from an old article Reg Williamson of the UK wrote. He used Elvanol, a poly-vinyl alcohol powder dissoved in a mixture of distilled water & ethanol (essentially vodka...that's what he used.)In the USA, Old Colony Sound Lab distributed it along with his article.
  
  What you did was mix this stuff up, then paint the vinyl with it and let it dry. As it did, it grabbed ahold of all the gunk/dirt/fuzz in the grooves and bound them to the PVA. When you wanted to play, you stuck a piece of tape onto the dried PVA and peeled it carefully off, along with all the 'gunk'. Result? Pristinely clean grooves for your stylus to surf!
  .
• See if any of Gary Galo's old articles are on-line. He wrote a lot about properly setting up a TT and reviewed several phono-stages.
  .
• Re: Digital vs. Analog. You need to start with a quality recording. If you blow that, nothing else matters. Records don't necessarily always sound better...it all depends...on many things. I have many fine CDs as well: Vanishingly quiet, spacious, well miked and well recorded. You know it when you hear it. Problem is, so few have.
  .
• And lets not forget. We started with an electro-mechanical transducer, the cartridge. We now end the audio chain with another: The Loudspeaker. No doubt a whole 'nother subject, but a very critical one. The vast-majority of loudspeakers most people use simply pale in comparison to an accurate, professional quality studio monitor, like a Genelec. They are so far apart it's hard to describe with mere words. It truly is one of those things you have to hear, to experience, for yourself. Once having done so, you'll never want to go back! There just is no back. Period.
  .
• So to sum up, in the vinyl domain spend your money first on a quality cartridge and phono-stage, then pick the TT. Then properly align all of it. Many don't do this though. Just like many don't first buy quality loudspeakers then USE them to judge everything else. All too often loudspeakers are purchased last as an afterthought. But what happens when you listen to a $2000 receiver through a poor, uneven, rough loudspeaker? After all, what you actually hear comes from the loudspeaker (and the room acoustics of course...). The drivers are an electro-mechanical-acoustical transducer. AC current enters the terminals, sound pressure waves exit the drivers. The loudspeaker is a system composed of the drivers, the XO (crossover), and the cabinet. So they all need to play well together, like a good band, and cooperate. Like Rush does!
  .
• The Audience is Listening......

 

[aquariuscsm]

I found an original (UK lp only) 1967 mono pressing of Al Stewart's "Bedsitter Images" lp for $3. Getting ready to play it as I type!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
I agree with a lot of what BrocLuno wrote. Good thinking there.

• Any TT needs to be mechanically aligned (set-up). That includes geometry. Test records used to be common. Also, they need to be on a non-resonant platform and in a non-resonant location in your listening room. Why? They are very, very sensitive to acoustical feedback once the volume is turned up.
  .
• Cartridge alignment & geometry is also critical...and fussy on some set-ups. Remember, we're dealing with a very light electro-mechanical transducer here. The test records really helped here.
  .
• Cables are also important but not for all the fu-fu reasons...for their capacitance in pFs. That little itty-bitty cartridge likes to be electrically loaded in a certain way to get the best sound.
  .
• A great phono-stage with a very, very low noise amp and accurate RIAA eq curve will greatly affect what you hear. After all the PS has many tasks to perform and it must do them all very well....and very quietly..with very, very low error & distorsion. This is why the very high-end PS are either run from batteries or with external power supplies.
  .
• You need a really clean record...and a dry groove. Playing after saturating is a no-no. The best cleaner I've seen was from an old article Reg Williamson of the UK wrote. He used Elvanol, a poly-vinyl alcohol powder dissoved in a mixture of distilled water & ethanol (essentially vodka...that's what he used.)In the USA, Old Colony Sound Lab distributed it along with his article.
  
  What you did was mix this stuff up, then paint the vinyl with it and let it dry. As it did, it grabbed ahold of all the gunk/dirt/fuzz in the grooves and bound them to the PVA. When you wanted to play, you stuck a piece of tape onto the dried PVA and peeled it carefully off, along with all the 'gunk'. Result? Pristinely clean grooves for your stylus to surf!
  .
• See if any of Gary Galo's old articles are on-line. He wrote a lot about properly setting up a TT and reviewed several phono-stages.
  .
• Re: Digital vs. Analog. You need to start with a quality recording. If you blow that, nothing else matters. Records don't necessarily always sound better...it all depends...on many things. I have many fine CDs as well: Vanishingly quiet, spacious, well miked and well recorded. You know it when you hear it. Problem is, so few have.
  .
• And lets not forget. We started with an electro-mechanical transducer, the cartridge. We now end the audio chain with another: The Loudspeaker. No doubt a whole 'nother subject, but a very critical one. The vast-majority of loudspeakers most people use simply pale in comparison to an accurate, professional quality studio monitor, like a Genelec. They are so far apart it's hard to describe with mere words. It truly is one of those things you have to hear, to experience, for yourself. Once having done so, you'll never want to go back! There just is no back. Period.
  .
• So to sum up, in the vinyl domain spend your money first on a quality cartridge and phono-stage, then pick the TT. Then properly align all of it. Many don't do this though. Just like many don't first buy quality loudspeakers then USE them to judge everything else. All too often loudspeakers are purchased last as an afterthought. But what happens when you listen to a $2000 receiver through a poor, uneven, rough loudspeaker? After all, what you actually hear comes from the loudspeaker (and the room acoustics of course...). The drivers are an electro-mechanical-acoustical transducer. AC current enters the terminals, sound pressure waves exit the drivers. The loudspeaker is a system composed of the drivers, the XO (crossover), and the cabinet. So they all need to play well together, like a good band, and cooperate. Like Rush does!
  .
• The Audience is Listening......

Great post!

Current speakers on my rig are a set of old Cerwin-Vega D3's with Bravox woofers and McIntosh tweeters. They sound decent enough but are certainly not monitor quality.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

There is an audio forum somewhere

All audiphile TT Ive heard or seen are either belt or rim drive. Cant get a good bearing on a motor these days I guess.

If you pke around the web you can "listen" to some 200K dollar ( yes, 200 thousand dollar) phono rigs.

I Use reference quality H phone and a good soundcard, that will get you at least 90% there.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

search: Michael Fremer analog Planet for a listen, Try the beach boys cut he posted.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Great post!

Current speakers on my rig are a set of old Cerwin-Vega D3's with Bravox woofers and McIntosh tweeters. They sound decent enough but are certainly not monitor quality.
Thanks

About those speakers though....

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
There is an audio forum somewhere

All audiphile TT Ive heard or seen are either belt or rim drive. Cant get a good bearing on a motor these days I guess.

If you pke around the web you can "listen" to some 200K dollar ( yes, 200 thousand dollar) phono rigs.

I Use reference quality H phone and a good soundcard, that will get you at least 90% there.


Which is comical of course, because all the high-end rigs were direct drive during vinyl's heyday. I have a good friend with an 8K turntable, custom belt driven full suspension and isolated rig. It sounds good, but I can't justify that kind of coin.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Great post!

Current speakers on my rig are a set of old Cerwin-Vega D3's with Bravox woofers and McIntosh tweeters. They sound decent enough but are certainly not monitor quality.
Thanks

About those speakers though....


Well, I'll be inheriting a set of B&W 802's at some point....

 

[aquariuscsm]

Excellent post sleddriver! I learned a lot of stuff just now from reading that I had no knowledge of,thank you! I remember those test records,Radio Shack sold them in the 70s. I always wondered what they were,I may go on eBay and buy one,at least to satisfy my curiosity.

When it comes to speakers,I love the sound of good horns. I have Electro Voice horns. Clear,crisp,and loud!

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
LP's have a better dynamic range than digital. ....


No way, not even close. I don't see how you ever would get more than 60 dB, or so, s/n out of high quality virgin vinyl. The entire reason for an RIAA curve, ( and FM pre emphasis, etc., ) is noise constraints.

I have hundreds of LP's played exactly twice - once to pull off surface noise, second to transfer to reel to reel tape. All packed away in a tight press to keep ( hopefully ) from warping. I would like to digitize them, but would have to get the turntable working again, build an RIAA preamp, find hundreds of hours of time ....

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
LP's have a better dynamic range than digital. ....


No way, not even close. I don't see how you ever would get more than 60 dB, or so, s/n out of high quality virgin vinyl. The entire reason for an RIAA curve, ( and FM pre emphasis, etc., ) is noise constraints.

I have hundreds of LP's played exactly twice - once to pull off surface noise, second to transfer to reel to reel tape. All packed away in a tight press to keep ( hopefully ) from warping. I would like to digitize them, but would have to get the turntable working again, build an RIAA preamp, find hundreds of hours of time ....


Wouldn't you just transfer the reel-to-reel to digital?

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Well, I'll be inheriting a set of B&W 802's at some point....
Now we're getting close....

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Excellent post sleddriver! I learned a lot of stuff just now from reading that I had no knowledge of,thank you! I remember those test records,Radio Shack sold them in the 70s. I always wondered what they were,I may go on eBay and buy one,at least to satisfy my curiosity.

When it comes to speakers,I love the sound of good horns. I have Electro Voice horns. Clear,crisp,and loud!
Cheers & Beers!

Glad you found it educational. Hope it helps others as well. That's why I delved into the detail.

Re: Horns. They definitely have their place in performance halls & outdoors. You need efficiency & a waveguide when trying to cover so much volume of air and for people so far from a stage. A horn is an acoustical impedence transformer. The itty-bitty tube amp guys love them as well. However, they can really color the sound in the home and are not meant to be sat close to at all. Note that a compression driver is entirely different than a silk-dome tweeter.

I'm about 9' from my TV and loudspeakers...that's way too close for any horn.

Remember when Klipsch was doing his major work low-power mono tube amps were all that was available! They needed all the gain they could get. Since the amp couldn't deliver it, a horn was used.

Shallow horns have been integral on a few successful dome tweeters, such as Dynaudio's D28 and the extraordinary Scan-Speak Revealator. I have systems employing each, but they're very different animals.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Well, I'll be inheriting a set of B&W 802's at some point....
Now we're getting close....


LOL

I hooked up the PS Audio 5.6 as the phono stage and it sounds more "crisp" than the one built into the DENON, am pleased with that.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Excellent post sleddriver! I learned a lot of stuff just now from reading that I had no knowledge of,thank you! I remember those test records,Radio Shack sold them in the 70s. I always wondered what they were,I may go on eBay and buy one,at least to satisfy my curiosity.

When it comes to speakers,I love the sound of good horns. I have Electro Voice horns. Clear,crisp,and loud!
Cheers & Beers!

Glad you found it educational. Hope it helps others as well. That's why I delved into the detail.

Re: Horns. They definitely have their place in performance halls & outdoors. You need efficiency & a waveguide when trying to cover so much volume of air and for people so far from a stage. A horn is an acoustical impedence transformer. The itty-bitty tube amp guys love them as well. However, they can really color the sound in the home and are not meant to be sat close to at all. Note that a compression driver is entirely different than a silk-dome tweeter.

I'm about 9' from my TV and loudspeakers...that's way too close for any horn.

Remember when Klipsch was doing his major work low-power mono tube amps were all that was available! They needed all the gain they could get. Since the amp couldn't deliver it, a horn was used.

Shallow horns have been integral on a few successful dome tweeters, such as Dynaudio's D28 and the extraordinary Scan-Speak Revealator. I have systems employing each, but they're very different animals.


The original tweeters from the D3's were shallow horns, the McIntosh units I replaced them with are these silk dome pieces:

 

[KitaCam]

I'm less drawn to LPs for their sound quality than for other factors.
I grew up with them so my ears were "educated" by analogue.
I like album cover art.
LPs have always been the cheapest medium. Since the 1990s I bought close to 3000 disks (all near-mint) for about $450....about the cost of 45 CDs....I've a lot of music around here I'd never have if I just bought CDs.

As for sound....I may be easy to please...but mid-level components seem fine to my ears, though I do agree that the cartridge does seem to have as much an impact on the nature of the sound as do speakers...and speaker location.

As for the speakers, I was recommended the Dynaco A25 boxes by an opera singer who said that their mid-level tones were as natural as any and for a singer the vocals were most critical...
Before I took his advice I remember comparing the A25 to the equivalent AR and found that whichever was on top of the other always sounded better...location, location, location is very important with speakers.
Over the years I have upgraded the tweeters to smooth the highs a bit and added a sub-woofer to the system for the bottom end.

I also remember using the Dynaco Quad-box for simulated surround sound and loved it...I still have one of those!

As for turntables...I've had several belt-driven Duals that just didn't hold up over all these years and many moves....I still have a rim drive 1219 I got in '75, but the quartz-locked DD seems the most reliable set-up, and luckily the Technics 1311 isn't afflicted by a finicky cueing mechanism of other similar Technics models...

And think this...we've even gotten this far without entering the killing fields where tube-fans would die before listening to music transmitted by transistors.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
LP's have a better dynamic range than digital. ....


No way, not even close. I don't see how you ever would get more than 60 dB, or so, s/n out of high quality virgin vinyl. The entire reason for an RIAA curve, ( and FM pre emphasis, etc., ) is noise constraints.

I have hundreds of LP's played exactly twice - once to pull off surface noise, second to transfer to reel to reel tape. All packed away in a tight press to keep ( hopefully ) from warping. I would like to digitize them, but would have to get the turntable working again, build an RIAA preamp, find hundreds of hours of time ....


Wouldn't you just transfer the reel-to-reel to digital?

I could, I guess, but if you have the first generation source readily available, I think it is a poor practice to use a second generation source.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The original tweeters from the D3's were shallow horns, the McIntosh units I replaced them with are these silk dome pieces:

I wonder if these are made by Philips? I remember these domes being used in a lot of high end home speakers,and sounded amazing!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The original tweeters from the D3's were shallow horns, the McIntosh units I replaced them with are these silk dome pieces:

I wonder if these are made by Philips? I remember these domes being used in a lot of high end home speakers,and sounded amazing!


Yes, they are, they are custom made by Philips to McIntosh's specs apparently. Found a page that covers it in detail (the source of the pictures).