CK-4 RT6: What have they done?

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: czbrian
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I'll tell you what they've done. They've taken an oil I've run successfully for years, and turned it into some kind of a wimpy near-beer.

These are all the metals that were present. Where is Moly?
The zddp content has really dropped off.
Magnesium is almost gone, compared to the previous formulation.
This doesn't look like a long life oil anymore.

I think I need to start considering alternatives.


I dont understand why you are complaining. In the UOA you posted your wear metals are lower than previous samples. Other than a slightly lower TBN, the oil is working just fine.


Yes, the wear metals are low because the remaining tribofilm from the previous 300k miles of running oils with 1200 ppm of Phosphorous is still there. So what happens after the next 50k miles of running the lower zddp oil? That will be in about 5 months, based on my current rate of accumulating miles.

I could start dosing the oil with ZDDPlus, I suppose.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: BrianF
Lets see some UOA's to prove or disprove this.



You did it again.

Perhaps we should have a swear box?

 

[Garak]

What's the starting TBN? As far as I know, it will still be well within E7, E9 territory. Even the Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30 E6 has a starting TBN of 11.

 

[addyguy]

I think you should ask for a re-test.

This was a test done of the new CK-4 RT6 back in November:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4238740/1

Numbers are not even close to what you have here, I think the lab mixed-up samples!

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
I think you should ask for a re-test.

This was a test done of the new CK-4 RT6 back in November:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4238740/1

Numbers are not even close to what you have here, I think the lab mixed-up samples!


Yes, I have asked them to retest the sample.

 

[A_Harman]

This is getting weird.
I asked Polaris to retest the sample, and they sent me this reply.

Quote:
Dear Customer,
The ICP results for the additive metals was double checked and confirming results were achieved prior to sending the initial report. We also noted this in the comments section of the report. I suspect the identified fluid is most likely misidentified and is actually a different product. We have product typical information for the Shell Rotella T6 on file and are comparing your sample against that standard. Thank you.

V/R
Ryan Featherston
Data Analyst II, OMA I


I replied to them that since I poured the oil directly from a jug of RT6, they can rest assured that it is RT6, and if it isn't, Shell has some explaining to do. I pointed out that my sample was the CK4 version, and maybe they are comparing it to CJ4.

 

[Garak]

That's probably what happened; they compared it to their CJ-4 samples, and there's confusion. I guess we have to wait and see if more VOAs get done. I'd like to see a VOA on Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30. But first, I'd actually have to see Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30.

 

[53' Stude]

Originally Posted By: Garak
That's probably what happened; they compared it to their CJ-4 samples, and there's confusion. I guess we have to wait and see if more VOAs get done. I'd like to see a VOA on Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30. But first, I'd actually have to see Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30.


Great point sir Garak. If I found some of this Multi Vehicle 5w30 I gladly would do a VOA

 

[A_Harman]

OK, latest update on Polaris.

They were comparing it to the CJ4 version, and now recognize the differences of CK4.

 

[Garak]

The labs always seem like the last to know about a new formulation and most confused by it; and the Shell distributor is the last to hear about a new Shell product.

 

[beanoil]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: czbrian
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I'll tell you what they've done. They've taken an oil I've run successfully for years, and turned it into some kind of a wimpy near-beer.

These are all the metals that were present. Where is Moly?
The zddp content has really dropped off.
Magnesium is almost gone, compared to the previous formulation.
This doesn't look like a long life oil anymore.

I think I need to start considering alternatives.


I dont understand why you are complaining. In the UOA you posted your wear metals are lower than previous samples. Other than a slightly lower TBN, the oil is working just fine.


Yes, the wear metals are low because the remaining tribofilm from the previous 300k miles of running oils with 1200 ppm of Phosphorous is still there. So what happens after the next 50k miles of running the lower zddp oil? That will be in about 5 months, based on my current rate of accumulating miles.

I could start dosing the oil with ZDDPlus, I suppose.



I'm leaning toward this...https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121


MORE TECHNICAL INFORMATION

Increases antiwear level per quart when using One Bottle (16oz.):

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
15 quarts - 610 ppm - 736 ppm
12 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
10 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
8 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm
7 quarts - 1307 ppm - 1577 ppm
6 quarts - 1525 ppm - 1840 ppm
5 quarts - 1830 ppm - 2208 ppm
4 quarts - 2288 ppm - 2760 ppm
1 quart - 9160 ppm - 11040 ppm

Half Bottle (8oz.) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
12 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
10 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
8 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
6 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
5 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
4 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm

One Quarter Bottle (4oz) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
6 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
5 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
4 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
3 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm


Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)

 

[Bighorn2500]

Originally Posted By: beanoil
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: czbrian
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I'll tell you what they've done. They've taken an oil I've run successfully for years, and turned it into some kind of a wimpy near-beer.

These are all the metals that were present. Where is Moly?
The zddp content has really dropped off.
Magnesium is almost gone, compared to the previous formulation.
This doesn't look like a long life oil anymore.

I think I need to start considering alternatives.


I dont understand why you are complaining. In the UOA you posted your wear metals are lower than previous samples. Other than a slightly lower TBN, the oil is working just fine.


Yes, the wear metals are low because the remaining tribofilm from the previous 300k miles of running oils with 1200 ppm of Phosphorous is still there. So what happens after the next 50k miles of running the lower zddp oil? That will be in about 5 months, based on my current rate of accumulating miles.

I could start dosing the oil with ZDDPlus, I suppose.



I'm leaning toward this...https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121


MORE TECHNICAL INFORMATION

Increases antiwear level per quart when using One Bottle (16oz.):

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
15 quarts - 610 ppm - 736 ppm
12 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
10 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
8 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm
7 quarts - 1307 ppm - 1577 ppm
6 quarts - 1525 ppm - 1840 ppm
5 quarts - 1830 ppm - 2208 ppm
4 quarts - 2288 ppm - 2760 ppm
1 quart - 9160 ppm - 11040 ppm

Half Bottle (8oz.) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
12 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
10 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
8 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
6 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
5 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
4 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm

One Quarter Bottle (4oz) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
6 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
5 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
4 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
3 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm


Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)


So beanoil, if using CK-4/SN oil, roughly a 1/2 bottle of ZDDP additive would be fine to bring the Z&P levels back up roughly to where the CJ-4 levels used to be when changing out 12 quarts?

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: beanoil
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: czbrian
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I'll tell you what they've done. They've taken an oil I've run successfully for years, and turned it into some kind of a wimpy near-beer.

These are all the metals that were present. Where is Moly?
The zddp content has really dropped off.
Magnesium is almost gone, compared to the previous formulation.
This doesn't look like a long life oil anymore.

I think I need to start considering alternatives.


I dont understand why you are complaining. In the UOA you posted your wear metals are lower than previous samples. Other than a slightly lower TBN, the oil is working just fine.


Yes, the wear metals are low because the remaining tribofilm from the previous 300k miles of running oils with 1200 ppm of Phosphorous is still there. So what happens after the next 50k miles of running the lower zddp oil? That will be in about 5 months, based on my current rate of accumulating miles.

I could start dosing the oil with ZDDPlus, I suppose.



I'm leaning toward this...https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121


MORE TECHNICAL INFORMATION

Increases antiwear level per quart when using One Bottle (16oz.):

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
15 quarts - 610 ppm - 736 ppm
12 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
10 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
8 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm
7 quarts - 1307 ppm - 1577 ppm
6 quarts - 1525 ppm - 1840 ppm
5 quarts - 1830 ppm - 2208 ppm
4 quarts - 2288 ppm - 2760 ppm
1 quart - 9160 ppm - 11040 ppm

Half Bottle (8oz.) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
12 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
10 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
8 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
6 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
5 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
4 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm

One Quarter Bottle (4oz) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
6 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
5 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
4 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
3 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm


Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)


Yes, I like Redline products. 1/4 bottle of their additive would bring the P up to ~1250.