Old record players

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OVERKILL

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So a few years ago (sometime in 2014) I purchased an open box special from Future Shop/Best Buy, which was a DENON DP-200USB belt-driven turntable with USB. Of course being open box, somebody stole the belt off of it and since I don't have many records it sat until recently when I finally got around to getting DENON to send me a replacement belt, which they did for free.

However, hooked up, the player skipped on a brand new Metallica - Master of Puppets LP. It did not skip on the old British import of LOAD that I had however. Upon doing some research on this issue, it appeared that this player is in fact a commodity unit manufactured by a 3rd party and rebranded by DENON and a few others as an entry-level style offering. It lacks configurable auto-skate or counterweighting, which left me with zero upgradability and a bit PO'd at myself for not looking into this before buying it.

Got searching Kijiji and E-Bay and eventually found an Aurex (Toshiba) SR-Q200, which is a direct drive quartz-locking turntable and looked quite appealing, so I drove out and picked it up last night. Put the skipping LP on it and it played perfectly, and also sounded massively better playing both albums, despite just having the stock ancient Aurex cartridge in it (which looks a whole heck of a lot like a Rega 100).

Now, I'm no audiophile or anything, but there is definitely something to be said for the difference between digital and vinyl. The highs, particularly the cymbals, sound noticeably different.

Now, I know you can spend obscene amounts of money on a record player. A buddy of mine has a custom built unit that is one of those. I can't justify that for my listening purposes. So for those of you who listen to records, how many of you are rocking old girls like this one and what is your setup?
 
I'm trying to get a Nam era PX purchased sansui 2040 going. No Time this year too busy at work. Belts are 50 cents at supply houses.

In the 80's Had an AR new with LV-X arm and grado green, Hafler preamp then a Yamaha MC cart. Not too shabby. But the best sound was with a Thorens with a Grace F9e. BELT drive all. NUDE diamond styli with modified elliptical or better are needed to get the best out of inner grooves and HF modulation. Listen to some you tube video on headphones and HD resolution(still compressed but better), Like HiFisquarepants.

You need a GREAT phono preamp too. I had a conord-johnson tube unit, but a re-capped SAE Mk I will sound good.. Anything designed by James Bonjiorno (SUMO, early SAE). There is silly expensive audio stuff out there still.
 
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I purchased one of the new Sony turntables. I had no idea what I was getting into. The person wanted $5 for a $120 turntable. That was my freshman year of highschool. I just graduated last week. Now I have almost every Rolling Stones album, bunch of Boston albums and a ton more. I love the sound of Vinyl. It just sounds so much better vs digital.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

You need a GREAT phono preamp too. I had a conord-johnson tube unit, but a re-capped SAE Mk I will sound good.. Anything designed by James Bonjiorno (SUMO, early SAE). There is silly expensive audio stuff out there still.



Surprisingly, the stock pre-amp in my DENON AVR X4200W is pretty decent. However, I also have a PS Audio preamp here that I could use to compare with.
 
LP's have a better dynamic range than digital. Back in the 80's, you'd use a phono with a range enhancer like the Pioneer RG-2, I have 2 of them, or run it through a dBx system, but that got expensive quickly and you couldn't record on to tape with it unless you had a decoder, a lot like the Dolby a/b and c's. Not all LP's are created equal. Some will have deeper grooves than others. I suspect that your Metallica LP wasn't very deep, hence the skipping. You also could have added a little more weight to the stylus by adjusting the arm or putting a light weight on top of the stylus assembly. The best turntables in the 70's and 80's were belt driven, because, that's all they had, but then came the electric driven turntables late 80's and on. Electric turntables offered two things, less wow and flutter (vibrations if you will) and longevity. Belts stretched, grew in size depending on the temperature and/or simply wore out.
 
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
You also could have added a little more weight to the stylus by adjusting the arm or putting a light weight on top of the stylus assembly.


Unfortunately the arm on the unit has no adjustment, that's one of the reasons I dumped it for this better unit.
 
After years of listening to LPs on our Thorens TD 124 it's hard to listen to the tinny sound that passes for digital music.
 
I also had a Thorens TD124, for 25 years.

I now use a Technics 1210 (1200 series) MK5. It's the proper answer. They are built incredibly well, with very high grade components. While DJ's and others use these for shows, they do so because they are so good and completely trouble free. But we must remember that the 1200 series was not built for DJ's. They are simply that robust.

Audiophiles will claim that ProJect makes better turntables. BALONEY. They don't. They only cost more.

The 1200 series is capable of anything you need, and can be found every day on craigslist, in great condition for around $300.

FWIW, a new "real" 1200 series is $1900-$3000.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-technics-sl-1200mk2-turntable
 
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I have a Dual 701 that has been refurbed. I like it but still listen to digital most of the time. My aging ears find it hard to tell the difference. I have some pretty good equipment do that could account for the minimal differences.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I have this one. A Realistic Lab-440 with a Shure cartridge.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/realistic-lab-440-tell-me-about-it.184588/



Pretty nice specs
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The thread that got me to pick-up this one is here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/turntable-questions.401012/

Specs:
Quote:
The Q in SR-Q200 indicates that it’s a quartz lock direct drive turntable (that was confirmed by an Ebay ad for a service manual), so it should be capable of quite reasonable performance – the Japanese only used quartz lock, on their mid-range to top-end turntables. Cheaper turntables were usually non-quartz-lock direct drive, with the speed user adjustable with reference to a stroboscope, with the cheapest (from the late-70’s onwards) being belt drive.

According to the picture of the service manual front cover, the specifications for the Toshiba/Aurex SR-Q200 are: wow and flutter less than 0.025% WRMS, rumble -75dB (DIN B weighted), weight 6.5kg, and it was sold in some export markets as the Toshiba SR-Q200.


*snip*

Quote:
Technics invented direct drive in 1970, and all their best turntables after that were direct drive, with only the very cheapest (but still quite competent) models being belt drive, as belt drive is cheaper to produce. None had performance to equal the specs I quoted above for the Toshiba/Aurex, although they weren’t far short. As Technics, with their huge resources, made many more turntable models (see * below) than any other manufacturer in the 1970’s and 1980’s, it’s no wonder their models looked good – they had a lot of practice!:D Looks don’t equate to performance, though.


Which indicated to me that for $150.00, it was a pretty darn good deal!
 
I have a Dual 701 that I bought new in 1974 and a newer Music Hall MMF5. The MMF5 is hooked up right now, but the Dual will go into service shortly. The big thing with turntables is the quality of the cartridge and stylus, do not cheap out when buying one.
 
Presently using an entry-level Project TT bought used 10 yrs ago. Sumiko Oyster cart. Parasound phono pre-amp and a chinese copy of a Musical Fidelity X-10 tube buffer. Sounds really nice together. Records rock!
 
I have a Stanton belt drive I got at a best buy a few years back. Its pretty silly because its supposed to be designed like a DJ style unit but its belt driven. it works well and I like to buy records. My prized record is a Weezer Say it aint so single limited edition UK version. One of 10,000 units.
 
That Toshiba TT is a beauty!
I'm running a Technics SL-1311 quartz-locked DD like OP's....simple, solid, sweet design.
Sound passes through a Denon AVR and out of 47-year old Dynaco A-25 speakers that sound as nice as ever.

Listening to Bobby Hutcherson: Solo/Quartet at this moment...elegant.
 
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Originally Posted By: KitaCam
That Toshiba TT is a beauty!
I'm running a Technics SL-1311 quartz-locked DD like OP's....simple, solid, sweet design.
Sound passes through a Denon AVR and out of 47-year old Dynaco A-25 speakers that sound as nice as ever.

Listening to Bobby Hutcherson: Solo/Quartet at this moment...elegant.


thumbsup2.gif
I'm listening to Metallica's black album, but earlier I managed to pick up an original copy of the BIlly Idol White Wedding single and it sounds amazing!
 
OK, I have been a supporter and a contributor to AudioKarma for a couple of decades, I guess ... Back in the early 1970's I worked for GRT/Chess/Janus Records (and Tapes) as a technician. I've been in this game for a while
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Mostly I hang out in the Turntable Forum because that's where folks chat about playing records (LP's, 45's, Shellac's, etc.). What we collectively have come to realize is that there are really three parts to the vinyl equation.

Part one is the TT. You have experienced that a bit. The job of the TT is to spin the record at the appropriate speed w/o variation, not add any platter harmonics, and support the tone arm. Many think the tone arm should be discussed as integral with the TT, but that is not necessarily so...

The second part of the vinyl equation is the cartridge. Or, more specifically the stylus. The stylus may have the biggest role in digging all the "data" out of a groove ... But, it can also have a huge effect by dredging up old bottom dirt, cigarette tars, dust bunny's, etc. AND, it can have a huge effect on sound in its own right (bright, mellow, dull, etc.). The suspension can have a great deal to do with tracking and the like...

The third part of the equation is the phono stage, or phono amp. If you are running a receiver, it's likely built in. But in actual A-B testing by me and lots of others among all sorts of built-in and external phono stages, it can be proven that there is a another huge difference to be had here. No matter how much signal/data gets extracted from the groove, some will be lost in the phono stage. It's just the nature of electronics. Tiny signal, big amplification factor, something will get stepped on. Could be the highs, could be the bass, prolly will be the detail and nuance.

So we roughly break these three areas into equal cost regions. Just like BITOG'ers, there is endless discussion about what is most important. Most agree, it's the vinyl mastering and pressing, then catridge/stylus, then phono stage, then TT.

You can get an amazing amount of music out of a modest TT with a good cartridge/stylus (that works well with the tone arm on hand ...), and a pretty decent phono stage. Of course, you can get more out of a top dollar rig. But the value return curve starts to flatten out pretty significantly at around roughly $300 for each element.

If anyone is interested, I can supply a pretty good discussion of all this in the Phono Stage A-B Comparo Doc I compiled a few years back. Lots of tricks, hints and background info for anyone pursuing a vinyl hobby. Just PM me with a real outside email address, and I'll send it along.
 
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