Group 1 Oils & Cleaning

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It was with interest that I recently read a post from SonOfJoe discussing the potential cleaning effects of an oil with Group 1 basestocks.

This certainly raised some questions of mine; specifically whether the oil can remove all manner of deposits, or only a few select types.
What else came to mind was whether oil additives like MMO may simply bottle up this sort of oil and sell it as some you-beaut cleaner(?).

Anyway, I was just after some thoughts and clarifications on this.
 
Apologies. I owe you an answer to your question from a while back.

First off, I want to state that I don't know what I'm talking about! I have ideas and conjecture but nothing that's definitive. Please bear that in mind as you read on.

Okay, engine oils to clean up the mess caused by other engine oils isn't that well researched a subject. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's not been properly looked at at all, ever. Think about it. Why would the oil companies look at such problems when to do so, they would have to acknowledge that might be something potentially wrong with their existing juice in the first place? This is anathema to them!

The oil companies do make some impressive claims for cleanliness and clean-up for some of their top-tier stuff but IMO you really need to take these claims with a big pinch of salt. As often as not, they refer to sludge rather than deposits and the demo tests they use are also somewhat 'artificial' in that the go though a rapid lay-down phase followed by an immediate and rapid clean-up phase. This is not the same as removing baked-on gunk from a piston that may have built up over several years.

To make this containable, I'm going to assume you've read my old posts. You will therefore already know I'm rather critical of certain aspects of modern engine oil design and why. You will have seen that I bang on relentlessly about the dangers of high Noack (especially in the US). Noack is like smoking cigarettes, you can smoke and live till a hundred or you can die of lung cancer at 35. Likewise you can rack up 300k miles on a high Noack oil or you can find the engine consuming vast amount of oil at 50k miles usually due to late onset oil ring stick. You will know about my concerns about base oil solvency. You will have heard me go on about how fuel dilution, more prevalent today because of GDI, can interact with Noack to worsen 'over-the-top' deposits. You will have read about my criticism of the API and the glaring gap in the testing protocols regarding deposit build-up over more than one OCI and why the OEMs are less than interested in excessive oil consumption if it only kicks off outside the warranty period.

So what's to do? First off, to those members who can drop an engine, strip it, remove all the pistons, clean then and put all the bits back together in a weekend, I salute you. Likewise those members that pull spark plugs and do piston soaks with MMO and the like, I salute you too. But I for one can't do that stuff. I never could. I haven't wielded a spanner in anger in 35 years and I don't do messy. HOWEVER...if I did have a car where deposits were playing havoc with the engine, I think that even I could source a 'special oil', drain the old old, replace it, drive it clean for say 1000 miles and then dump & drain. This is what I think I hear on BITOG; the relentless scream of demand unfulfilled!

What would such an oil be? First off it should be heavy and aromatic. The closest you might find would be a low tier Group I 20W50. You don't want Group II. Ideally it would be VII-free, something like a 20W40, but these are rare.

If I could go beyond the normal, I might think of an oil that contained say 30% of 'Solvent Extract'. When you make Group I base oils, you take crude Vacuum Gas Oil (VGO) and you mix it intimately with a solvent like Furfural. The mix separates into two layers. One that is 'almost' high VI paraffinic Group I base oil, the other a mix of Furfural and low VI, unstable heavy aromatics. The former you send to Dewaxing, the latter, you separate by distillation with the Furfural being recycled and the so-called 'Solvent Extract' going somewhere not lubey (fuel oil blending? FCCU feed? don't know to be honest). Anyway, whilst Extract is conventionally seen as very bad base oil, for the purposes of piston cleaning it might be just what you're after. It's also dirt cheap and The Sovs still make thousands of tonnes of this stuff so it's available. Just bear in mind you are looking for a cheap deposit cleaner that can be functionally used as an oil for a very short period.

That's probably enough said to get the ball rolling...
 
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SOJ:
That was a very interesting post but it has given me more questions than answers.

For instance...Is the case of SJ rated 10w30 (almost definitely Group 1) Wolf's Head that I have in my stash a great cleaning oil?

I could ask you a thousand questions because of your background in the industry but I'll ask just this one.
If you bought a brand new car which current (US sold ) oil would you use to keep it running a long, long time and what OCI would you follow?
 
The problem with US is that the way ILSAC organises things, any all mineral (be it Group I or II) 10W30 will have been formulated half way to being a 5W30. As a result it will have a far higher Noack than something you might find in Europe.

Given that Noack is the bugbear of almost all US oils (the only reasons to 'go synethic' are to get an oil that has a lower Noack and a smidge less VII), probably the oil you need is Amsoil Signature Series 10W30. Even though it's half way to being a 5W30, it still has a Noack of just 5.3%. If they had the sense to up the CCS-25 to 6800 cP, you might knock it below 3.5% which would be even better!

Regarding deposits, it's far easy to stop them forming in the first place than to remove them once they've baked on. That's what this oil does for you.

Regarding OCI, I'd say 10k miles easy, 15k mmmmm...pushing it a bit, I'd probably settle on 12k miles.

Hope that helps...
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Anyway, whilst Extract is conventionally seen as very bad base oil, for the purposes of piston cleaning it might be just what you're after. It's also dirt cheap and The Sovs still make thousands of tonnes of this stuff so it's available. Just bear in mind you are looking for a cheap deposit cleaner that can be functionally used as an oil for a very short period.


Don't want to spoil the retro mood, but I think The Sovs are nearly all Former Sovs these days.

From your description I doubt an ordinary individual has access to that stuff, but it could probably be obtained on a commercial scale.

Do you think anyone's doing it? If not maybe you should. Wouldn't involve much development, though distribution and marketing wouldn't be trivial.
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
SOJ... Would not be ester based engine oils better for this particular task (de-gunking the engine)???


If this was a lab based exercise, the two solvents I would go for first are Carbon Disulphide and Benzene. They're both nasty chemicals to handle but one is the ultimate hetro-molecule and the other the primary aromatic. I wouldn't pick an ester as a first choice. You don't get either CS2 or Benzene in lube base oils but I'd be looking at heavy Group Is or Solvent Extract for heavy analogues of both. Given the tenacious nature of piston gunk, you will be looking for something pretty aggressive just to soften it up a bit, never mind redissolve it again.

I was also wondering along the lines of putting a suitable 'scouring powder' in the mix to score the deposit surfaces a bit. Obviously you can't put Ajax or Vim in oil but you do sometimes find unfiltered calcium carbonate (probably partially complexed with oil soluble species) in very high TBN detergents. I might imagine this stuff might achieve the same goal. It would be worth a look-see.

To whoever said, why don't I do this myself, I am more than happy being a boring retired person and hands-on grandad. I did try and get Castrol (via BITOG) to think along these lines but that went precisely nowhere. Maybe one of the smaller operators might see this as an opportunity to develop. Whoever did pick this up might do quite well. Clearly everything is not as tickety-boo in engine land as some people want you to believe. There are just too many posts that start with 'my car has done x thousand miles but has recent started to burn oil. I have serviced it regularly using the recommended oil blah, blah, blah'. The can't all be dismissed as sad internet moaners!

One group that might have reason to pick up on this are some of the Japanese OEMs. To me it seems like people like Toyota and Honda are getting blamed, and having to pick up the tab for problems caused by inappropriate oil, rather that any fundamental fault of their engines.
 
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I thought that by the SJ era, oils were already adding Group II, II+, and even III to the mix of even "conventional oils". The first 5W-20's in the US came out as SJ? They were almost certainly synthetic-blends depending on your definition of "synthetic"). no?

Perhaps the 10W-30's were still by-and-large Group I, but my guess is that they were not...

I'm asking because I may be wrong on this, (and yes I realize that 5W-20 existed in the 70's and was withdrawn from market with the exception of Mobil 1 5W-20, IIRC)...
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
The first 5W-20's in the US came out as SJ?


maybe... I thought they were SL .. ?
 
Originally Posted By: pbm
SOJ:
That was a very interesting post but it has given me more questions than answers.

For instance...Is the case of SJ rated 10w30 (almost definitely Group 1) Wolf's Head that I have in my stash a great cleaning oil?


Talking of my experience, we got burned badly when the lube industry went from GrI to GrII turbine oils without telling us.

The lack of ability to hold varnish in suspension lead to varnish and sludge through out the industry (funnily, the regular benchmarks like RBOT and RULER showed fine).

But switching back to GrI doesn't clean up the already laid down deposits, it takes either mechanical intervention in a shutdown (hand clean everything) or the installation of an electrostatics, or ion exchange system to strip ALL of the varnish out of suspension, allowing the oil to pick it back up and transfer it to the machine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLRavNbgEPY
http://www.oilfiltrationsystems.com/company_products/varnish-removal-systems/

Given that you don't end up sludgy until you've used up the carrying capacity of the oil, at which point all new product is laid down. Add new oil, and it will "fill to capacity" then every gramme made gets laid down also...I believe that frequent (very) oil changes on a GrI in theory should clean.

But my experience with varnish in a 3.8 and 1,500km oil changes on a 15W40 Shell product with "superior cleaning" that it's not very realistic to expect it to do it.

(AutoRx follwed to the letter didn't do it either)...but it was just varnish.
 
So here's my question: Why did we ever switch away from Group I oils in the first place?

I feel like the tone of this thread is pretty nostalgic for Group I, but there had to be reasons why we moved away from them. What are they?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
So here's my question: Why did we ever switch away from Group I oils in the first place?

I feel like the tone of this thread is pretty nostalgic for Group I, but there had to be reasons why we moved away from them. What are they?


I think oxidative stability allowing longer OCI's at higher temperatures. If I understand the above correctly, the Group I cleaning regime suggested would be at relatively short intervals. Perhaps the "traditional" 3000 mile limit was/is actually an appropriate limit for Group 1 oils.
 
Thank-you SOJ for your in-depth response.
While (perhaps) not based entirely on fact, this is an interesting topic to bandy about. I do agree it would perhaps be counter-intuitive for the oil companies to research the true ability of their oils to clean up oil-related deposits.

Also a thanks to Shannow for giving the real-world examples of where this might be (or might not be!) applicable.

Sounds to me the best way at preventing 'late onset piston ring stick' is to use an oil with a low viscosity spread and low NOACK, and in such a case, synthetics or conventionals should perform adequately.
Of course, that almost defeats the purpose of the thread - that's no fun.
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Given that Noack is the bugbear of almost all US oils (the only reasons to 'go synethic' are to get an oil that has a lower Noack and a smidge less VII), probably the oil you need is Amsoil Signature Series 10W30. Even though it's half way to being a 5W30, it still has a Noack of just 5.3%.


Back in 2012, Pennzoil Ultra had the following Noacks:

5w20 - 4.8%
10w30 - 5.0%
5w30 - 6.4%

Data sheet here: http://www.kellerheartt.com/v/vspfiles/D...01207271346.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
The first 5W-20's in the US came out as SJ?


maybe... I thought they were SL .. ?


No, I think SJ because I was changing oil then at a quick lube. IDk...
 
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