BMW Certified, or Lower mileage?

[jeepman3071]

Saying all BMWs are unreliable is kind of a blanket statement. Just in the 2006-2011 3-series alone there were a bunch of different engines. Some reliable, some maintenance nightmares. The N52 3.0L in the E90 325, 328, and 330 cars was a pretty bullet proof N/A straight six with a few cooling system problems and potential oil leaks. The E90 335i which is basically the same car with a N54 turbo inline six had high pressure fuel pump problems, injector problems, turbo failures, etc. The 2014 228i will have the 240hp 2.0L 4-cylinder turbo (N20), which is fairly reliable.

1. Know what you are buying, research potential problems.

2. Get it inspected by another set of eyes besides where it is being sold.

3. I'd lean toward the CPO, since you have a warranty for a period of time.

4. Find a good independent BMW mechanic.

Saying you need to be able to afford a brand new one in order to buy a used one is silly, UNLESS you only go to the dealer for service and do nothing yourself. The dealerships are known to charge insane prices, and in some instances perform maintenance incorrectly, causing more problems down the road.

If he makes 6 figures at 22, no family and lives at home, he will be fine either way. I'd be more worried about the thing ending up in a tree at that age.

I'm curious to know what BMWs Wag123 has owned that cost him tens of thousands of dollars? Maybe the V10? The M62TU V8 with timing chain guide failures? Or the N54 which has a whole laundry list of expensive problems.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: Trav
This has turned into just another bash German cars thread by some clueless posters.

I'm not clueless, I have worked on thousands of German cars over the last 45 years so I know what I'm talking about. I am not bashing German cars in general, just BMW specifically (but don't get me started on Italian cars). In general, they ARE more difficult to work on, they DO break more often, and they ARE more expensive to maintain and repair than most other makes. Among Germans in Germany, BMWs are not well regarded. It would take several pages to list all of the bone-headed engineering that I have personally encountered on BMWs over the years. For example, just this past week I encountered yet another 80k mile BMW V/8 with a coolant transfer tube leak (they will ALL eventually leak), and, 2 weeks ago I encountered yet another cracked plastic thermostat housing on a 75k mile 3 series (they will ALL eventually crack), I will bet that I have replaced at least 200 of these.
After all these years I have become increasingly convinced that BMW doesn't give a RAT's A$$ about what happens to their vehicles after the warranty expires. Far too many people purchase used BMWs that can barely afford to make the payments on them and they get themselves in BIG trouble because they can't afford to properly maintain and repair them. BMWs are precisely engineered vehicles that require maintenance and repairs be performed by knowledgeable professionals. My advice that one shouldn't buy a BMW unless they can afford to by a new one stands. BMWs are not good cars for working-class people on limited budgets.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I'm curious to know what BMWs Wag123 has owned that cost him tens of thousands of dollars? Maybe the V10? The M62TU V8 with timing chain guide failures? Or the N54 which has a whole laundry list of expensive problems.

None. I couldn't afford one, and wouldn't buy a BMW even if I could. Besides, I work on them for a living and I don't wan't to go home and constantly have to work on my own vehicles, so I purchase very reliable vehicles that I don't have to mess around with. If I COULD afford to buy a high-end German car, it would be a MB or Porsche.

 

[d00df00d]

You work on BMWs for a living, and you think they're always broken.

Think about that for a second.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
wag123,

Affluent people who buy a BMW can also afford the repairs...

For the price of a used BMW, just buy a new Accord Sport and avoid the headaches.


Yeah, but I prefer driving a used Mercedes as opposed to a new Accord. I'm doing ok with mine. I like the looks of the BMW 5 series, but went with MB's E350's instead because BMW tends to have worse electronics. I think in the German rankings, MB is a bit better than BMW and Audi is at the bottom. The E class has been fun, very hard to find one with all the options, but my bixenons, pano roof, parktronic, keyless go etc are all still working for now after about 3 years into it. The expensive part of it is the tires though, on the 2nd set after the first set that came with the car wore out in about 30k and those were almost new when I got it.

As for leasing, there are good deals at the end of the year when discounts can range from 8-14% off MSRP and when the residual is 55-60% plus you have a few rebates/discounts to MSRP to stack on top, it can cut the monthly price down by a few hundred. I did get my MB's without any warranty though, but if I had to do it over again, I'd probably either get a CPO one or get one where it still qualifies for an extended warranty, MB also has ones that are good for 100k and those extra 3 years are under 3k.

Basically for leasing, you're still paying for the depreciation of a new car, it tends to slow down a bit after 3-4 years. After about 3 years, I think I've taken about a 6k hit on price of the car, but new, the first 5-6 years took a 30-35k hit. Basically probably about a 200 loss per month vs probably at least a 500-600 monthly lease, no incentives is closer to 700.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
You work on BMWs for a living, and you think they're always broken.

Think about that for a second.

I'd also like to know his place of employment.
So I could avoid it like the plague.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
You work on BMWs for a living, and you think they're always broken.
Think about that for a second.

I never said that they are always broken.
I said... "In general, they ARE more difficult to work on, they DO break more often, and they ARE more expensive to maintain and repair than most other makes", and... "BMWs are precisely engineered vehicles that require maintenance and repairs be performed by knowledgeable professionals", and... "BMWs are not good cars for working-class people on limited budgets", ALL of which are factual statements IMO.
BMW owners are a strange bunch. They cry like crazy when they get the inevitable $2000+ repair bills, $1000+ brake job bills, and frequent $1500+/set tire replacement bills (tires should ALWAYS be replaced in sets of 4 on a BMW), yet defend their cars to the death when anyone criticizes the fact that they are expensive cars to own. Part of the problem is the high cost of BMW OEM parts, IMO it is a VERY BAD IDEA to use aftermarket parts on a BMW (except on a BMW V/8 coolant transfer tube leak repair).

 

[jeepman3071]

I agree, they are more expensive to work on, parts are more expensive, etc. I actually wouldn't recommend them for people who don't enjoy cars and just see vehicles as appliances. There are differences between them though. An entry level 3 series is perfectly fine for a working class person, meaning someone who isn't rich but doesn't live paycheck to paycheck. A 5 or 7 series will be more expensive to own and maintain due to their complexity.

My friend is 24 and owns a 2006 325xi. The car has 114k miles on it. It has needed a water pump, oil filter housing gasket, starter, and belt/tensioner. Everything except the starter I did for her. The car has been very reliable, and she isn't rich by any means, but can certainly afford the repairs.

Her dad has a 2008 335i, with the N54 twin turbo, and that is on a different level of maintenance simply because of it's complexity and early model year issues for the N54.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
My friend is 24 and owns a 2006 325xi. The car has 114k miles on it. It has needed a water pump, oil filter housing gasket, starter, and belt/tensioner. Everything except the starter I did for her. The car has been very reliable, and she isn't rich by any means, but can certainly afford the repairs.

Have you replaced her thermostat housing yet? I recommend that this item be replaced EVERY 60k miles as a regular maintenance item. Do not use one of the aftermarket aluminum replacements, they are very poor quality, use an OEM part and be VERY careful with torque values.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
My friend is 24 and owns a 2006 325xi. The car has 114k miles on it. It has needed a water pump, oil filter housing gasket, starter, and belt/tensioner. Everything except the starter I did for her. The car has been very reliable, and she isn't rich by any means, but can certainly afford the repairs.

Have you replaced her thermostat housing yet? I recommend that this item be replaced EVERY 60k miles as a regular maintenance item. Do not use one of the aftermarket aluminum replacements, they are very poor quality, use an OEM part and be VERY careful with torque values.


Yup, I forgot to add the T-stat to the list. That was replaced at the same time as the water pump at about 75k when the pump failed. I read that the water pump had to come out to get to it anyway so did them both at the same time. Both were factory OEM parts and came with the new aluminum bolts since they are one time use. Kind of a pain to get to being an X-Drive, but with some wobble extensions it wasn't too terrible. I also had a trickle charger on the battery when doing the bleed procedure as recommended by the forums.

She loves the car, and luckily is pretty mechanically minded for a 24 year old girl. If anything is out of the ordinary with it, she gets it checked out right away. They aren't bad cars when maintained, but if things are ignored that's when it gets expensive. I will say it is probably a bit more difficult to work on than my neighbor's 2004 330xi E46.

 

[d00df00d]

wag123, you also said this(emphasis added):
Originally Posted By: wag123
I work on them for a living and I don't wan't to go home and constantly have to work on my own vehicles, so I purchase very reliable vehicles that I don't have to mess around with.


And:
Originally Posted By: wag123
you are going to become VERY familiar with the dealer's service department and personnel


And:
Originally Posted By: wag123
that should give you some kind of idea of how expensive BMWs are to repair and how unreliable they can be.


I agree with a lot of what you've said. I wholeheartedly second the parts about how they're best when leased, to always use BMW OE parts, and that Mercedes and Porsche might be better from a maintenance standpoint. All I'm taking issue with is the gloominess of the overall picture you're painting about BMW reliability. I think your view, experienced as it is, is highly subject to sampling bias -- i.e., all you ever see are broken ones, so you probably think they break more often than they actually do.

BMW has had duds for sure. E30s fall apart constantly. Early N54s sucked. Anything with an N63 needs a new battery at every oil change. S54/S62 rod bearing issues, high rates of failures and insanely expensive repairs on the S85, etc.

On the flip side, I found my old E36 very easy to work on. The E46 is very well characterized at this point and comparably easy to work on. The E82 and E9x cars are more difficult but break less, at least with the N52. E39s and E60s with NA I6s aren't bad. Those cars alone account for quite a lot of the BMWs people would buy without a ton of money.

They are not Toyotas or Hondas when it comes to maintenance. But they're not unilaterally nightmarish. For many of them, the main problem is finding one with good provenance.

 

[wag123]

d00df00d (and all), all I was trying to do is warn potential BMW buyers about what they should expect so that they are not caught off-guard. I feel like I have done my "good-deed-for-the-day". If a person goes into a BMW ownership experience with their eyes-wide-open, they shouldn't be surprised by the ownership expenses and hopefully have budgeted for them. I have run into far too many working-class individuals who have purchased older/higher-mile BMWs for the first time because they can be purchased for relatively inexpensive prices and have been shocked by the maintenance/repair expenses. Unfortunately, some of these individuals end-up doing things "on-the-cheap" which causes far more, and bigger, problems. Also, as you have pointed out, although some of BMWs models are fairly reliable, they are not universally so on all of their models across the board (like some other makes are). Because of this, even an excellent ownership background and maintenance history doesn't guaranty that a buyer will get a good reliable BMW.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
wag123,

Affluent people who buy a BMW can also afford the repairs...

For the price of a used BMW, just buy a new Accord Sport and avoid the headaches.


Yeah, but I prefer driving a used Mercedes as opposed to a new Accord. I'm doing ok with mine.0.


For a second I was going to claim you were Scotty Kilmer, but he sure as [censored] wouldn't own a Mercedes. haha.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Originally Posted By: Trav
This has turned into just another bash German cars thread by some clueless posters.

Among Germans in Germany, BMWs are not well regarded.

So who are the 262,083 people who bought new BMW cars in Germany last year? As number 4 out of 35 in sales for 2016 in Germany I would say they a pretty well regarded. In fact Euro wide Q1 2017 they are very close to MB.

Originally Posted By: wag123
I'm not clueless


The numbers do not support your statement as an informed one.

http://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany...cturers-brands/

http://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2017-q1-europe-best-selling-car-manufacturers-brands/

 

[MCompact]

I'm still trying to figure out how the "a BMW should not be "purchased" at all, they should be obtained under 3-4 year leases and replaced every 3-4 years so that they are always covered under the factory new car warranty, free maintenance, free roadside assistance, free towing, and free loaner car period (you ARE going to need these services)." advice is a wise financial decision.
In my case I bought a 2004 X3 2.5i in December of 2005 and kept it for 137 months. If I had leased a car at $550/month(with no money down) during that period I would have spent over $32,000 more than the actual depreciation and service/repair costs(including three sets of tires). And note that I changed oil at 8.000 mile intervals, ATF at 60,000 intervals, and coolant every 3-4 years.
Yes, perpetual leasing sure makes sense to me; maybe I'd break even if I leased a more expensive car for a longer period...

In the interests of full disclosure I'll concede I'm currently leasing a 2016 i3 REX for 24 months at $105 per month, but my fuel bill has dropped by over $200/month- so I actually am saving money.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
I'm still trying to figure out how the "a BMW should not be "purchased" at all, they should be obtained under 3-4 year leases and replaced every 3-4 years so that they are always covered under the factory new car warranty, free maintenance, free roadside assistance, free towing, and free loaner car period (you ARE going to need these services)." advice is a wise financial decision.
In my case I bought a 2004 X3 2.5i in December of 2005 and kept it for 137 months. If I had leased a car at $550/month(with no money down) during that period I would have spent over $32,000 more than the actual depreciation and service/repair costs(including three sets of tires). And note that I changed oil at 8.000 mile intervals, ATF at 60,000 intervals, and coolant every 3-4 years.
Yes, perpetual leasing sure makes sense to me; maybe I'd break even if I leased a more expensive car for a longer period...

In the interests of full disclosure I'll concede I'm currently leasing a 2016 i3 REX for 24 months at $105 per month, but my fuel bill has dropped by over $200/month- so I actually am saving money.


In theory having it under a lease means no repair costs but there's still wear and tear items. Probably a used one with an extended warranty would make the monthly costs a bit lower, but an extended warranty won't cover certain items that are covered under a factory warranty, typically stuff that might be considered cosmetic. Some leases are pretty amazing. On leasehackr.com, there are some good deals where it would take over 10 years worth of lease payments to add up to the MSRP of the car so those are really good deals, some would take as long as 12-14 years. If the total lease payments add up to MSRP in just 6-8 years, then it's probably not a good lease.

 

[montero1]

Well, we ended up getting the one with 11k on it, it still has 13 months left on the factory warranty. We also got an extended warranty to 100k, or 6 years. Car is immaculate.Thanks for all the opinions.

 

[Lubener]

"Certified" by whom? That term means nothing when buying a used car. Just a way to jack up the price.

 

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted By: montero1
Well, we ended up getting the one with 11k on it, it still has 13 months left on the factory warranty. We also got an extended warranty to 100k, or 6 years. Car is immaculate.Thanks for all the opinions.


Congratulations. It's going to put a smile on the driver's face.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: montero1
Well, we ended up getting the one with 11k on it, it still has 13 months left on the factory warranty. We also got an extended warranty to 100k, or 6 years. Car is immaculate.Thanks for all the opinions.

Is the extended warranty from a third party? If so, did you look carefully at the terms? Some of them have big deductibles, crazy criteria about where and how you maintain the car, etc.

Some of them also will only do repairs with cheap and/or used parts. I had a friend whose extended warranty had to cover 5 transmission replacements in like two years because the terms stated that they would only replace a transmission with a same-mileage used one. Because her car was at the mileage where that transmission tended to fail, they kept putting in transmissions that were on the verge of failure...