2016 Honda Civic 1.5T TGDI..DILUTED!
- Thread starter dblshock
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If the ECU tune is good, then there's absolutely no reason for any piston rods to spontaneously granade outta the block.
Now those that try to tune it themselves and get it wrong and then have a blown engine, well... that's a different story.
I'm coming up on 200,000 miles between two different makes and models of sucessful and healthy engine operation all while getting better MPG then stock and more power and rev beyond the factory rev limit.
Here's my 2014 Mazda 3.
Now those that try to tune it themselves and get it wrong and then have a blown engine, well... that's a different story.
I'm coming up on 200,000 miles between two different makes and models of sucessful and healthy engine operation all while getting better MPG then stock and more power and rev beyond the factory rev limit.
Here's my 2014 Mazda 3.
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Zero need for an econobox to have turbo engine. Porsche 911 Turbo - yes.... Civic - no.
I had a rental 2017 Civic (non turbo) and it was pretty quick with naturally aspirated engine and CVT.
I do understand Honda wants to attract young buyers with turbo engine, but it's more of a dog and pony show.
It's a fuel economy issue, not attracting young buyers with performance. And Honda has a lot riding on the 1.5T: it's also used in most 2017 CRVs and appears to be the volume engine for the new 2018 Accord. Honda will be putting the better part of a million of these engines on the road each year; hope they have it right...
It's not just a fuel economy issue. The horsepower displacements the new Civics have is like a small performance car 10-15 years ago...
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Zero need for an econobox to have turbo engine. Porsche 911 Turbo - yes.... Civic - no.
I had a rental 2017 Civic (non turbo) and it was pretty quick with naturally aspirated engine and CVT.
I do understand Honda wants to attract young buyers with turbo engine, but it's more of a dog and pony show.
It's a fuel economy issue, not attracting young buyers with performance. And Honda has a lot riding on the 1.5T: it's also used in most 2017 CRVs and appears to be the volume engine for the new 2018 Accord. Honda will be putting the better part of a million of these engines on the road each year; hope they have it right...
It's not just a fuel economy issue. The horsepower displacements the new Civics have is like a small performance car 10-15 years ago...
I'm sorry if I missed it if asked already, but what are the dealerships saying about fuel dilution?
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
I'm sorry if I missed it if asked already, but what are the dealerships saying about fuel dilution?
Most often, a blank stare. I expect they get very, very few complaints as very, very few people perform UOAs. They may get a few questions about a gasoline smell when checking the oil (among those few owners that actually do that!), but these are easily passed off as "normal".
If you bring a UOA into a dealer, they will be puzzled as most have never seen such a thing. If you push it, they may have a discussion with the manufacturer, but beyond checking for codes and looking at fuel trim, not much else will happen.
OBD2 diagnostics really will identify most fuel dilution causes. For example, fuel pressure loss indicating an injector leak will be flagged as will be a stuck-open thermostat. In other words, if you go in with this complaint and no CEL illuminated, it's likely nothing of consequence will happen. Mind you, they won't say your results are "typical" or "harmless", but will say there's nothing to fix. And even good service departments will be confounded by a lack of corporate help or interest. Ask me how I know...
An exception to this seems to be Ford's response to dilution in early 3.5 EcoBoosts. So, kudos to them.
I'm sorry if I missed it if asked already, but what are the dealerships saying about fuel dilution?
Most often, a blank stare. I expect they get very, very few complaints as very, very few people perform UOAs. They may get a few questions about a gasoline smell when checking the oil (among those few owners that actually do that!), but these are easily passed off as "normal".
If you bring a UOA into a dealer, they will be puzzled as most have never seen such a thing. If you push it, they may have a discussion with the manufacturer, but beyond checking for codes and looking at fuel trim, not much else will happen.
OBD2 diagnostics really will identify most fuel dilution causes. For example, fuel pressure loss indicating an injector leak will be flagged as will be a stuck-open thermostat. In other words, if you go in with this complaint and no CEL illuminated, it's likely nothing of consequence will happen. Mind you, they won't say your results are "typical" or "harmless", but will say there's nothing to fix. And even good service departments will be confounded by a lack of corporate help or interest. Ask me how I know...
An exception to this seems to be Ford's response to dilution in early 3.5 EcoBoosts. So, kudos to them.
Oil was rising but here's the sample test results...what the heck. I was sure I had fuel dilution (or some other dilution) but nothing in the results. No clue what was the cause. It definitely got diluted with something just looking at the viscosity. Any thoughts?
Originally Posted By: dblshock
I'd be reluctant to change the ECU.. if the engine grenaded on a LSPI you'd likely be on the hook.
What is the progress of this? Has the oil dilution settled or is the oil level still rising?
How is the car doing on higher viscosity oils?
I'd be reluctant to change the ECU.. if the engine grenaded on a LSPI you'd likely be on the hook.
What is the progress of this? Has the oil dilution settled or is the oil level still rising?
How is the car doing on higher viscosity oils?
What is LSPI? I missed that.
Unfortunately, I doubt the dealer/Honda Corporate will do anything meaningful. That is how most large corporations operate these days. This is apparent to me since they want to test the oil during the summer, when it is less likely to happen. They know what is going on, I'm sure you aren't the first person to ever experience this issue.
It is all a cost analysis for them. Cost of fixing the issue/having a recall vs. cost of engines repaired within warranty.
Even though this fuel dilution is quite obvious, I'm willing to bet most engines will last just outside of warranty. That is usually all the manufacturers care about.
Unfortunately, I doubt the dealer/Honda Corporate will do anything meaningful. That is how most large corporations operate these days. This is apparent to me since they want to test the oil during the summer, when it is less likely to happen. They know what is going on, I'm sure you aren't the first person to ever experience this issue.
It is all a cost analysis for them. Cost of fixing the issue/having a recall vs. cost of engines repaired within warranty.
Even though this fuel dilution is quite obvious, I'm willing to bet most engines will last just outside of warranty. That is usually all the manufacturers care about.
Honda's still on first gen DI. They're where others were 5-10 years ago. They'll figure their system out in subsequent gens, I'm sure- you know, change their injectors, spray angles, injection staging and timing to eliminate adhesion to the cyl wall, sophistocated tumble-swirl characteristics... the usual. Perhaps an improved low pressure EGR solution and chamber temperature control strategy to ease off the crude 'enrichment' method. They're still newbs in the DI game afterall.
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I'm willing to bet most engines will last just outside of warranty. That is usually all the manufacturers care about.
Let's hope, but the risk is still great. First gen DPF systems on diesels and primitive regen modes caused excessive dilution diesel engine oils with lubrication related failures happening quickly and catastrophically.
I'm willing to bet most engines will last just outside of warranty. That is usually all the manufacturers care about.
Let's hope, but the risk is still great. First gen DPF systems on diesels and primitive regen modes caused excessive dilution diesel engine oils with lubrication related failures happening quickly and catastrophically.
Originally Posted By: Danh
OP: you can take these results to your dealer to dealer, but disclosing your use of an unapproved viscosity could create a problem. I've been down this very road with Honda and got nowhere. You could also try using 93-octane fuel as a few DI Mazda users have found this helps. Otherwise, I think your choice to accept this as normal or move to a different make.
Why would a fuel more resistant to ignition help this problem?
OP: you can take these results to your dealer to dealer, but disclosing your use of an unapproved viscosity could create a problem. I've been down this very road with Honda and got nowhere. You could also try using 93-octane fuel as a few DI Mazda users have found this helps. Otherwise, I think your choice to accept this as normal or move to a different make.
Why would a fuel more resistant to ignition help this problem?
Originally Posted By: leje0306
Originally Posted By: Danh
OP: you can take these results to your dealer to dealer, but disclosing your use of an unapproved viscosity could create a problem. I've been down this very road with Honda and got nowhere. You could also try using 93-octane fuel as a few DI Mazda users have found this helps. Otherwise, I think your choice to accept this as normal or move to a different make.
Why would a fuel more resistant to ignition help this problem?
It appears that some manufactures may enrich the fuel mixture to quiet the spark knock rather than retard the spark advance when using a 87 octane fuel. Hence a higher octane fuel might help quiet the spark knock without enriching the fuel mixture and diluting the oil.
Whimsey
Originally Posted By: Danh
OP: you can take these results to your dealer to dealer, but disclosing your use of an unapproved viscosity could create a problem. I've been down this very road with Honda and got nowhere. You could also try using 93-octane fuel as a few DI Mazda users have found this helps. Otherwise, I think your choice to accept this as normal or move to a different make.
Why would a fuel more resistant to ignition help this problem?
It appears that some manufactures may enrich the fuel mixture to quiet the spark knock rather than retard the spark advance when using a 87 octane fuel. Hence a higher octane fuel might help quiet the spark knock without enriching the fuel mixture and diluting the oil.
Whimsey
It's an interesting subject. I have the CR-V on my list of crossovers for purchase this fall. The fuel dilution thing is worrisome but it has probably the best interior of all the choices out there imo. I could see colder weather aggravating the problem if the owner idles longer to warm up the car. In my experience I idle long enough to scrape the glass and that's it I take it easy for the first few miles if the temps are colder than usual. Seattle gets into the 20s on occasion but the outer region can see single digits or sometimes lower though that is rare. Still, it's not the upper Midwest for example.
Some have reported good results running a higher octane gasoline. The higher cost would be the big turnoff with that but it's something to try. Lastly, some here have speculated that since wear numbers did not increase, the issue is not as dangerous as we might think. Better oils? The answer is out there somewhere.
Some have reported good results running a higher octane gasoline. The higher cost would be the big turnoff with that but it's something to try. Lastly, some here have speculated that since wear numbers did not increase, the issue is not as dangerous as we might think. Better oils? The answer is out there somewhere.
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