4WD
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Is this close to what GF6 will be on zinc/phos ?
Mobil 1 0W/20 Annual Protection Virgin Oil
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Originally Posted By: 4WD
Is this close to what GF6 will be on zinc/phos ?
Yes, SN oils need 600 to 800 ppm of P to be legal. Makes us think Blackstone is grossly out of calibration and a disaster since the NAPA analysis above corresponds to expected values as reported by Mobil for P, and the moly ppm amount is very normal for friction reduction per research tech papers in the past.
Detergents using Mg and Ca still appear to be a little low, yet maybe Mobil1 has some proprietary antioxidants in there to get'r'done in the end for a long 20k mile run.
By comparison, Amsoil SS 25k oil has been known to use 3500 ppm Ca to get a big TBN 11. That appears to not be the approach Mobil1 is using, as both Ca and Mg combined are on the low side.
Interesting to compare the Ca and Mg amounts from PQIA's http://www.pqiadata.org/Mobil1_0W20_dexos.html to this M1 Ann Prot (NAPA oil analysis we'll take). The amounts are about the same, yet one is a 10k mile oil and the other is a 20k mile oil !!! Also compare M1 AFE to this M1 Ann Prot in moly & boron, and they again match up. I'm guessing magical antioxidants and better base oil might be the only diff between M1 AFE and M1 Ann Prot, who knows(?).
Is this close to what GF6 will be on zinc/phos ?
Yes, SN oils need 600 to 800 ppm of P to be legal. Makes us think Blackstone is grossly out of calibration and a disaster since the NAPA analysis above corresponds to expected values as reported by Mobil for P, and the moly ppm amount is very normal for friction reduction per research tech papers in the past.
Detergents using Mg and Ca still appear to be a little low, yet maybe Mobil1 has some proprietary antioxidants in there to get'r'done in the end for a long 20k mile run.
By comparison, Amsoil SS 25k oil has been known to use 3500 ppm Ca to get a big TBN 11. That appears to not be the approach Mobil1 is using, as both Ca and Mg combined are on the low side.
Interesting to compare the Ca and Mg amounts from PQIA's http://www.pqiadata.org/Mobil1_0W20_dexos.html to this M1 Ann Prot (NAPA oil analysis we'll take). The amounts are about the same, yet one is a 10k mile oil and the other is a 20k mile oil !!! Also compare M1 AFE to this M1 Ann Prot in moly & boron, and they again match up. I'm guessing magical antioxidants and better base oil might be the only diff between M1 AFE and M1 Ann Prot, who knows(?).
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4WD
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Guess all the test engines were GDI too ...
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Is this close to what GF6 will be on zinc/phos ?
GF6, which is 2 years away, may dispense with the minimum P, but the max will still be 800 ppm, last I saw.
Is this close to what GF6 will be on zinc/phos ?
GF6, which is 2 years away, may dispense with the minimum P, but the max will still be 800 ppm, last I saw.
Originally Posted By: Nissan101
Valvoline maxlife has a higher TBN
But this m1 is a low sap oil, so that can account for the low TBN.
Honestly my country might never get this oil so wont bother me much lol.
Also, virgin TBN has little to do with TBN retention.
This oil might show unusually low TBN degradation rates as some others do.
This is an answer we won't have until someone actually runs and UOAs the oil.
Even that won't tell the whole story since Blackstone reports seeing no notable increase in wear metals even as TBN approached zero.
Blackstone may not be perfect but they do have a huge database of UOAs.
Valvoline maxlife has a higher TBN
But this m1 is a low sap oil, so that can account for the low TBN.
Honestly my country might never get this oil so wont bother me much lol.
Also, virgin TBN has little to do with TBN retention.
This oil might show unusually low TBN degradation rates as some others do.
This is an answer we won't have until someone actually runs and UOAs the oil.
Even that won't tell the whole story since Blackstone reports seeing no notable increase in wear metals even as TBN approached zero.
Blackstone may not be perfect but they do have a huge database of UOAs.
So
Do we assume the ALS (Napa) report is more accurate because it agrees more closely with Mobil’s numbers? If so why do both Blackstone reports differ so much from the ALS report and as much as 12% from each other?
How closely would another ALS report conform to this one...
I’m interested to see btanchors 10,000 mile run....
Do we assume the ALS (Napa) report is more accurate because it agrees more closely with Mobil’s numbers? If so why do both Blackstone reports differ so much from the ALS report and as much as 12% from each other?
How closely would another ALS report conform to this one...
I’m interested to see btanchors 10,000 mile run....
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Do we assume the ALS (Napa) report is more accurate because it agrees more closely with Mobil’s numbers? If so why do both Blackstone reports differ so much from the ALS report and as much as 12% from each other?
Yes, the NAPA report matches M1 AFE 0w20 results, which might mean Mobil1 Annual Protection is just AFE with better anti-oxidants and possibly base oil(??). Sounds reasonable. Also matches Mobil's 650 ppm P claim, so likely its good.
No concern about a small 12% variation in Blackstone results (and that was in only the Ca/Mg elements). Irritating, yes
Do we assume the ALS (Napa) report is more accurate because it agrees more closely with Mobil’s numbers? If so why do both Blackstone reports differ so much from the ALS report and as much as 12% from each other?
Yes, the NAPA report matches M1 AFE 0w20 results, which might mean Mobil1 Annual Protection is just AFE with better anti-oxidants and possibly base oil(??). Sounds reasonable. Also matches Mobil's 650 ppm P claim, so likely its good.
No concern about a small 12% variation in Blackstone results (and that was in only the Ca/Mg elements). Irritating, yes
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I may have to switch to NAPA labs.
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They were rhetorical questions.
Within QC there is a tool called a confidence calculator. Based on a given population you tell the confidence calculator what degree of certainty you want the results to have and it tells you how many representative samples of the population you must inspect in order for your results to predict the entire population.
We would probably need three or four hundred samples to make any statement with 95% certainty about a single days production of this oil (perhaps even a single hours production)
We can create a hypothesis from a smaller sample and that hypothesis may well be correct.
I’m now curious how consistent the variation between labs is, I would like to see more samples sent to both labs.
Within QC there is a tool called a confidence calculator. Based on a given population you tell the confidence calculator what degree of certainty you want the results to have and it tells you how many representative samples of the population you must inspect in order for your results to predict the entire population.
We would probably need three or four hundred samples to make any statement with 95% certainty about a single days production of this oil (perhaps even a single hours production)
We can create a hypothesis from a smaller sample and that hypothesis may well be correct.
I’m now curious how consistent the variation between labs is, I would like to see more samples sent to both labs.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
That is good.
Do it twice - not a good prediction
Do it 10 times - fairly good average
Do it 100 times - exact percentage
Do it twice - not a good prediction
Do it 10 times - fairly good average
Do it 100 times - exact percentage
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I think Castrol Edge black bottle has a virgin tbn of 11.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Castrol MHP 154 has more
4WD
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Thinking about another lab: 3x120,000 is 360,000 miles. So, if one had those engines testing 20k runs - that is 18 OCI - and if one owned the lab and liked to plot trends like TBN/TAN, metals, properties, or was testing an anti ox pkg - you might do a 5k UOA for said plot. 72 UOA's we don't see? - but I bet they did and have some serious test kit our little labs don't ...
I’m quite sure Mobil has comprehensive analysis and I am equally certain that they are sure the oil will do what they say it will.
I think the biggest issue is that (as someone said earlier) we are trying to use a service for something that is not the intended purpose. Both of these labs are for condition monitoring so they are looking for wear metals. At the levels of wear metals necessary for condition monitoring they are plenty accurate.
Still my curiosity has been peaked by the rather significant difference in the two reports.
I think the biggest issue is that (as someone said earlier) we are trying to use a service for something that is not the intended purpose. Both of these labs are for condition monitoring so they are looking for wear metals. At the levels of wear metals necessary for condition monitoring they are plenty accurate.
Still my curiosity has been peaked by the rather significant difference in the two reports.
Finally got a Blackstone sample back. All still looks low, probably a systemic Blackstone problem. Now we need PQIA to run something.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I sent in a sample to Blackstone of the exact same batch as btanchor's original VOA batch, yet Blackstone has not sent me anything. I emailed them and asked them if they knew where it was and they say they never got it. Trying to send another one in again.
Thanks to duckryder, we now have a 2nd sample, and this time from a different batch (inked vs. lasered batch numbers). Still showing low numbers on about everything.
btanchor 11017B20A 6326
duckryder 11017A02A 6326:
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I sent in a sample to Blackstone of the exact same batch as btanchor's original VOA batch, yet Blackstone has not sent me anything. I emailed them and asked them if they knew where it was and they say they never got it. Trying to send another one in again.
Thanks to duckryder, we now have a 2nd sample, and this time from a different batch (inked vs. lasered batch numbers). Still showing low numbers on about everything.
btanchor 11017B20A 6326
duckryder 11017A02A 6326:
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An update: When questions about the low levels of additives in M1 Ann Prot 0w20 which disqualify it from even being an SN oil, Blackstone says their calibrations are fine. They re-ran my VOA (see above post), and got very close to the same results.
Their repeatability consistency is good.
Now we wonder about their instrument bias, which they claim they have calibrated out.
Their repeatability consistency is good.
Now we wonder about their instrument bias, which they claim they have calibrated out.
Did the lowering of sulphur in gasoline fuels which was enacted on June 6, 2017 contribute to the birth of Mobil 1 Annual Protection, which mirrors low saps diesel oils. Maybe with low sulphur gasoline-think limit is 10ppm would require less metallic additives to achieve same or better wear protection. https://grace.com/catalysts-and-fuels/en-us/Documents/114-Meeting Tier 3.pdf
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
An update: When questions about the low levels of additives in M1 Ann Prot 0w20 which disqualify it from even being an SN oil, Blackstone says their calibrations are fine. They re-ran my VOA (see above post), and got very close to the same results.
Their repeatability consistency is good.
Now we wonder about their instrument bias, which they claim they have calibrated out.
It's also possible that the single NAPA/ALS result is incorrect, or that all of them are correct and the oil itself is showing variations, perhaps not everyone shook, (or shook equally) their bottles prior to filling the sample containers. 3 or 4 samples are hardly a condemnation of anything...
An update: When questions about the low levels of additives in M1 Ann Prot 0w20 which disqualify it from even being an SN oil, Blackstone says their calibrations are fine. They re-ran my VOA (see above post), and got very close to the same results.
Their repeatability consistency is good.
Now we wonder about their instrument bias, which they claim they have calibrated out.
It's also possible that the single NAPA/ALS result is incorrect, or that all of them are correct and the oil itself is showing variations, perhaps not everyone shook, (or shook equally) their bottles prior to filling the sample containers. 3 or 4 samples are hardly a condemnation of anything...
I'm able to run Mobil 1's 0W20 EP to 26k miles. The TBN holds up and I could go further (currently on my first 28k OCI).
I'm not sure what the draw is with this new AP type, since EP's TBN is higher, unless like some have said, the additive package lasts longer. If the price of the oil drops, I'd be up for testing it.
I'm not sure what the draw is with this new AP type, since EP's TBN is higher, unless like some have said, the additive package lasts longer. If the price of the oil drops, I'd be up for testing it.
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