CAFE conspiracy nonsense disproved (RIP)

[Gokhan]

It's time to put an end to this CAFE conspiracy nonsense for good. It's as if the car manufacturers don't know anything about how to recommend oil or don't care if the cars break down during the warranty period because of improper viscosity grade. Perhaps the biggest falsehood that is used to support this conspiracy nonsense is the claim that USA is the only country that recommends thin oil for the same car, for which the rest of the world recommends thick oil. Like any nonsense conspiracy theory, this could be disproved with some real evidence.

Let's pick 2016/2017 Toyota Corolla and 2016/2017 Toyota Hilux (pickup truck) and let's pick a country that is both in Europe and Middle East -- Turkey. You can download all the Toyota owners' manuals here:

https://turkiye.toyota.com.tr/KullaniciElKitabi/KullaniciElKitabi.aspx

Let's look at the Corolla first:

1NR-FE and 1ZR-FAE engines

Preferred viscosity: 0W-20
API SN/RC, SM/EC, or SL/EC

Acceptable viscosity based on temperature (only when 0W-20 not available -- 0W-20 must be used for next oil change):

Toyota Hilux (pickup truck):

2TR-FE engine (for Euro IV or V [emission standards] models)

Recommended viscosity based on temperature:

API SN/RC, SM/EC, or SL/EC
(non-RC or non-EC for 15W-40)

2TR-FE engine (except for Euro IV or V [emission standards] models)

Recommended viscosity based on temperature:

API SN/RC, SM/EC, or SL/EC
(non-RC or non-EC for 15W-40 and 20W-50)

As you see the oil recommendation is the same as in USA. The only difference is that they recommend a wider range of API categories and viscosity because of limited availability of newer API categories and thinner viscosity or, alternatively, widespread availability of older API categories and thicker viscosity in some markets (countries). Addition of 20W-50 for the non-Euro Hilux (pickup truck) is one example of market-dependent oil availability. They just want to make it more convenient for people to find oil in developing countries.

RIP CAFE conspiracy theory nonsense.

 

[gregk24]

+1

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
The only difference is that they recommend a wider range of API categories and viscosity

That's the point, you can use a wider range of viscosity and still be supported by the factory and keep your warranty.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
because of limited availability of newer API categories and thinner viscosity

And that's the falsehood, that you are the only people on earth that have access to newer and thinner oils.

 

[demarpaint]

If I'm reading correctly, according to those charts 5W30 can be used year round just about anywhere w/o destroying the engine either.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
The only difference is that they recommend a wider range of API categories and viscosity

That's the point, you can use a wider range of viscosity and still be supported by the factory and keep your warranty.

This is another falsehood. There is nothing in USA Toyota owners' manuals that says that warranty will be void if a thicker oil is used. In fact, all USA Toyota owners' manuals state that:

"The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the oil viscosity when the oil is at its operating temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."

The problem is, why, why, why, why in the world would you want to use a thicker oil if the recommended viscosity grade was tested to protect the engine? There is no such thing as thicker oil reduces wear. For a gasoline engine, the oil viscosity is either thick enough to prevent wear or not. There is really not much of a gray area where you will benefit from less wear by going to a thicker viscosity. Going to a thicker viscosity will only result in a sluggish engine, lower fuel economy, decreased oil circulation and flow, increased oil temperature, more pressure on the oil pump and seals, etc. etc. It's a lose - lose - lose - lose choice.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's a lose - lose - lose - lose choice.[/b]


There is no one shoe fits all. The language in the Toyota manual implies as such.

Higher heat = lower viscosity. There is a threshold where 0w20 would not be optimal.

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is nothing in USA Toyota owners' manuals that says that warranty will be void if a thicker oil is used.
While that may be true for Toyota, my Ford owner's manual states: "Use Motorcraft or an equivalent oil meeting Ford specification WSS-M2C153–H." That spec requires an oil to be 5W-20.

I realise that the owner's manual doesn't specifically state that using an oil that does not meet the published spec will void the warranty, but I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that Ford would most certainly see it that way if it was to their advantage. Although I *might* prevail in a court of law, it would certainly cost me way more than the value of a new engine, so it's pretty much a "requirement".

 

[Kuato]

2 data points to prove something? Statisticians are going to riot worldwide!!

AKA: need more data to make your case.

 

[hemitruck]

Agree completely, the pockets of Ford and other auto mfg are pretty deep.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

I try to use 10w-60 racing oil in my 1.6 econobox four banger because it provides amazing "protection" and the only thing I have to worry about is using an oil viscosity that'll make engine wear near physically impossible. It runs like **** but the protection will have me keeping this car well over 350K miles...even if I never keep cars over 150K. To me, it's worth the cost of the oil and lack of logic.

Let me tell you, it's definitely CAFE conspiracy if the Bolivian owners manual says to use 10w-30 instead of 0w-20 because of 9000 ppm of sulphur in the fuel...after all, it can only be "apples to apples" and there can never be a reason why the recommendations are different...and availability of oil grades in a certain market would NEVER factor into or appear in the manual or be referenced by the manufacturer in ANY way.

If they don't import GDI vehicles to certain markets due to the quality of the fuel you can bet that the specified oil grade possibly might be different than in our domestic market...no, actually that's impossible. Can't see it..../sarcasm off

 

[HerrStig]

I'll run in my Toyota Camrys what I want to run, and it's 5W 30 for all of them , including the one that just it 360K and my 08
for which the manual says 5W 30. You thin oilers can stand on your heads ans spit nickles and it won't change my mind. Your claims of "sluggish engine" and "reductions in gas mileage" can barely be measured.

 

[JamesBond]

Between your TWO uoa's and the Turkish owners manual I guess "the science is settled" as they say.

Anyone remember the brontosaurus or planet Pluto?

 

[PimTac]

CAFE may not be a conspiracy but it is a mandate by govt. Onething that should be obvious is that a one size fits all rule never works fairly.

Cherry picking stats is an obvious sign that one cannot backup their premise. I will run whatever grade of oil I wish based on my usage and climate. Nobody can stop that.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
I try to use 10w-60 racing oil in my 1.6 econobox four banger because it provides amazing "protection" and the only thing I have to worry about is using an oil viscosity that'll make engine wear near physically impossible. It runs like **** but the protection will have me keeping this car well over 350K miles...even if I never keep cars over 150K. To me, it's worth the cost of the oil and lack of logic.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Chances are that your engine may live longer on thinner oil.

Castrol Edge 10w-60, 14k,'09 BMW M3

"Other M3 drivers have switched (from 10W-60) to a 0w40 oil and cut their lead levels in half."

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911030

By the way if you want the thickest motor oil out there, there is also 25W-60.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I guess its really important to you that internet strangers believe your alternative point of view.

 

[FowVay]

My 2017 Nissan Frontier list an oil viscosity chart for the USA and one for Mexico. The grades approved in the USA are 5w-30 and 10w-30. For Mexico it ranges from 5w-30 to 20w-50.

Is it due to CAFE or just the extreme heat that the vehicle is operated in?

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
I try to use 10w-60 racing oil in my 1.6 econobox four banger because it provides amazing "protection" and the only thing I have to worry about is using an oil viscosity that'll make engine wear near physically impossible. It runs like **** but the protection will have me keeping this car well over 350K miles...even if I never keep cars over 150K. To me, it's worth the cost of the oil and lack of logic.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Chances are that your engine may live longer on thinner oil.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3312258/Catrol_Edge_10w-60,_14k,'09_BM

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911030


Actually, that was sarcasm and I was agreeing with you. I use what the owners manual advises. The things that always amaze me on here are the one-dimensional references to CAFE and the blanket statements....while apparently not being able to comprehend that there might be reasons why different markets might spec a different oil grade that aren't CAFE-related.

Maybe it would be a better argument to try to establish where exactly on the spectrum using 5w-30 versus a spec'd 0w-20 will net you 100K more miles in most modern engines. Obviously, too varied to replicate but I'm sure the blanket statements would be hilarious and probably have more in common with 1982 than 2017.

 

[Trav]

Try this one from your Turkish manuals, you want to cherry pick then here you go. We can do this all day and it proves nothing either way so give it a rest already.
You tried to prove xw20 was better than xw40.

You want to run xw20w then have at it but stop trying to prove something that is only true in your mind.

 

[53' Stude]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Try this one from your Turkish manuals, you want to cherry pick then here you go. We can do this all day and it proves nothing either way so give it a rest already.
You tried to prove xw20 was better than xw40.

You want to run xw20w then have at it but stop trying to prove something that is only true in your mind.






+1000 and people like Gokhan will never learn, just what they want to believe

 

[CharlieBauer]

Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
The things that always amaze me on here are the one-dimensional references to CAFE and the blanket statements....while apparently not being able to comprehend that there might be reasons why different markets might spec a different oil grade that aren't CAFE-related.

The weird thing for me is that along with Japan, this is one area where we are ahead of other countries in the thinking, engineering and testing.

Why is it so bad that the American private sector postulated that thin oils would improve fuel economy without affecting longevity, went and formulated oils and testing plans, and were proven right about it?