I would love to see the engineering analysis of this filter.
FRAM extraguard really is garbage - check this out
- Thread starter tj90
- Start date
- Status
Well,
We have made multiple attempts to contact this poster, get the filter back and report what exactly happened. The poster does not return calls and has made no arrangements to return the filter. Last chance, I will send you a case of XG filters if you will just send in this filter for evaluation. If you will not, I have to assume (especially from the title) that this post is a hoax intended to damage FRAM. Trying to do the right thing here and the poster is not cooperating.
Sorry to rant but I want to know what happened here.
We have made multiple attempts to contact this poster, get the filter back and report what exactly happened. The poster does not return calls and has made no arrangements to return the filter. Last chance, I will send you a case of XG filters if you will just send in this filter for evaluation. If you will not, I have to assume (especially from the title) that this post is a hoax intended to damage FRAM. Trying to do the right thing here and the poster is not cooperating.
Sorry to rant but I want to know what happened here.
Originally Posted By: Lubener
Not responding because the situation is likely phoney and he cut the section out with a razor.
I have to say I agree. My first clue was the wording in his subject line, people generally post such a sensational title when they have an agenda. If you randomly cut open a filter and find such a thing you're not going to post "really is garbage" unless you already thought they were, and now have found proof.
One wonders if that is even his own filter. I mean, if you're already biased against the brand why would you use them in the first place.
Not responding because the situation is likely phoney and he cut the section out with a razor.
I have to say I agree. My first clue was the wording in his subject line, people generally post such a sensational title when they have an agenda. If you randomly cut open a filter and find such a thing you're not going to post "really is garbage" unless you already thought they were, and now have found proof.
One wonders if that is even his own filter. I mean, if you're already biased against the brand why would you use them in the first place.
MrQuackers
Site Donor 2024
I love Fram. I'll take a case of XG3614.
Thanks
Thanks
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Well,
We have made multiple attempts to contact this poster, get the filter back and report what exactly happened. The poster does not return calls and has made no arrangements to return the filter. Last chance, I will send you a case of XG filters if you will just send in this filter for evaluation. If you will not, I have to assume (especially from the title) that this post is a hoax intended to damage FRAM. Trying to do the right thing here and the poster is not cooperating.
Sorry to rant but I want to know what happened here.
Bravo! Can't ask for any more than that. I agree, and from a third party point of view, put up or shut up.
Well,
We have made multiple attempts to contact this poster, get the filter back and report what exactly happened. The poster does not return calls and has made no arrangements to return the filter. Last chance, I will send you a case of XG filters if you will just send in this filter for evaluation. If you will not, I have to assume (especially from the title) that this post is a hoax intended to damage FRAM. Trying to do the right thing here and the poster is not cooperating.
Sorry to rant but I want to know what happened here.
Bravo! Can't ask for any more than that. I agree, and from a third party point of view, put up or shut up.
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Well,
We have made multiple attempts to contact this poster, get the filter back and report what exactly happened. The poster does not return calls and has made no arrangements to return the filter. Last chance, I will send you a case of XG filters if you will just send in this filter for evaluation. If you will not, I have to assume (especially from the title) that this post is a hoax intended to damage FRAM. Trying to do the right thing here and the poster is not cooperating.
Sorry to rant but I want to know what happened here.
Motorking - Bravo! The OP is not forth coming and likely has another agenda. In my view Fram filters are suited for the purposes as indicated on the boxes and the Fram website.
Well,
We have made multiple attempts to contact this poster, get the filter back and report what exactly happened. The poster does not return calls and has made no arrangements to return the filter. Last chance, I will send you a case of XG filters if you will just send in this filter for evaluation. If you will not, I have to assume (especially from the title) that this post is a hoax intended to damage FRAM. Trying to do the right thing here and the poster is not cooperating.
Sorry to rant but I want to know what happened here.
Motorking - Bravo! The OP is not forth coming and likely has another agenda. In my view Fram filters are suited for the purposes as indicated on the boxes and the Fram website.
[/quote] In my view Fram filters are suited for the purposes as indicated on the boxes and the Fram website. [/quote]
I have a question/problem with this idea.[ not blaming the poster ] The Fram web site includes a warranty statement that claims their filters perform/meet the auto manufacturers requirements as stated in the owner's manual. In some cases this could mean 15,000 miles. So which is it? Is a Fram extra guard good for 5,000 miles or 15,000 miles? If fram tests their filters and the extra guard is for 15,000 miles, where does this 5,000 miles number come from. Logically, if the filter is warrantied to 15,000 miles it must be able to last that long and 5,000 is simply marketing to get you to buy more filters. If the filter can't last 15,000 miles, fram doesn't look so good.
Would you run one for 15,000 miles?
I have a question/problem with this idea.[ not blaming the poster ] The Fram web site includes a warranty statement that claims their filters perform/meet the auto manufacturers requirements as stated in the owner's manual. In some cases this could mean 15,000 miles. So which is it? Is a Fram extra guard good for 5,000 miles or 15,000 miles? If fram tests their filters and the extra guard is for 15,000 miles, where does this 5,000 miles number come from. Logically, if the filter is warrantied to 15,000 miles it must be able to last that long and 5,000 is simply marketing to get you to buy more filters. If the filter can't last 15,000 miles, fram doesn't look so good.
Would you run one for 15,000 miles?
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
[/quote] In my view Fram filters are suited for the purposes as indicated on the boxes and the Fram website.
I have a question/problem with this idea.[ not blaming the poster ] The Fram web site includes a warranty statement that claims their filters perform/meet the auto manufacturers requirements as stated in the owner's manual. In some cases this could mean 15,000 miles. So which is it? Is a Fram extra guard good for 5,000 miles or 15,000 miles? If fram tests their filters and the extra guard is for 15,000 miles, where does this 5,000 miles number come from. Logically, if the filter is warrantied to 15,000 miles it must be able to last that long and 5,000 is simply marketing to get you to buy more filters. If the filter can't last 15,000 miles, fram doesn't look so good.
Would you run one for 15,000 miles? [/quote]
That is a question for Fram to answer.
[/quote] In my view Fram filters are suited for the purposes as indicated on the boxes and the Fram website.
I have a question/problem with this idea.[ not blaming the poster ] The Fram web site includes a warranty statement that claims their filters perform/meet the auto manufacturers requirements as stated in the owner's manual. In some cases this could mean 15,000 miles. So which is it? Is a Fram extra guard good for 5,000 miles or 15,000 miles? If fram tests their filters and the extra guard is for 15,000 miles, where does this 5,000 miles number come from. Logically, if the filter is warrantied to 15,000 miles it must be able to last that long and 5,000 is simply marketing to get you to buy more filters. If the filter can't last 15,000 miles, fram doesn't look so good.
Would you run one for 15,000 miles? [/quote]
That is a question for Fram to answer.
Pictures are worth a thousand words. The end cap is smooth where there is no media. He would have had to spend a lot of time to get that glue off the fiber end cap after sectioning out the media. If one bothered to click on OP's user name they would see he hasn't been on this site for a few weeks, about when he posted the findings. His other posts show he is a reasonable person figuring out oil filters, the ones I read like his write up on opened filters. The one where someone said the Wix combo valve bypasses oil constantly through the holes in it. Too bad Wix doesn't send a person here to make a rebuttal.
Originally Posted By: Lubener
Not responding because the situation is likely phoney and he cut the section out with a razor.
I'm not so sure about that. The glue that holds the media to the endcaps is so strong that it would be near impossible to remove a portion of the media without any residual media left on the endcap.
My bet is the filter probably was a defect.
Good on Jay for trying to make good on this and getting to the bottom of what happened.
Not responding because the situation is likely phoney and he cut the section out with a razor.
I'm not so sure about that. The glue that holds the media to the endcaps is so strong that it would be near impossible to remove a portion of the media without any residual media left on the endcap.
My bet is the filter probably was a defect.
Good on Jay for trying to make good on this and getting to the bottom of what happened.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Pictures are worth a thousand words. The end cap is smooth where there is no media. He would have had to spend a lot of time to get that glue off the fiber end cap after sectioning out the media. If one bothered to click on OP's user name they would see he hasn't been on this site for a few weeks, about when he posted the findings. His other posts show he is a reasonable person figuring out oil filters, the ones I read like his write up on opened filters. The one where someone said the Wix combo valve bypasses oil constantly through the holes in it. Too bad Wix doesn't send a person here to make a rebuttal.
Originally Posted By: sir1900
Originally Posted By: Lubener
Not responding because the situation is likely phoney and he cut the section out with a razor.
I'm not so sure about that. The glue that holds the media to the endcaps is so strong that it would be near impossible to remove a portion of the media without any residual media left on the endcap.
My bet is the filter probably was a defect.
Good on Jay for trying to make good on this and getting to the bottom of what happened.
I agree with both of you.
The OP is a very infrequent poster, so it fits that he hasn't been back to see the response from Fram.
His subject title is OTT, but that alone isn't enough to condemn him. Remember, an infrequent poster is more likely to be influenced by the unfair reputation that Fram have than a more active member would. His reaction is perhaps understandable when he found the state of the filter on his vehicle.
Equally, you can't blame Motorking from being frustrated and suspecting that this could be a hoax. But to claim it is a hoax would mean it is quite elaborate as mentioned by the two posters I have quoted. Just don't see how it fits that a very infrequent poster would suddenly decide to do such a thing. What and where is the motivation?
Pictures are worth a thousand words. The end cap is smooth where there is no media. He would have had to spend a lot of time to get that glue off the fiber end cap after sectioning out the media. If one bothered to click on OP's user name they would see he hasn't been on this site for a few weeks, about when he posted the findings. His other posts show he is a reasonable person figuring out oil filters, the ones I read like his write up on opened filters. The one where someone said the Wix combo valve bypasses oil constantly through the holes in it. Too bad Wix doesn't send a person here to make a rebuttal.
Originally Posted By: sir1900
Originally Posted By: Lubener
Not responding because the situation is likely phoney and he cut the section out with a razor.
I'm not so sure about that. The glue that holds the media to the endcaps is so strong that it would be near impossible to remove a portion of the media without any residual media left on the endcap.
My bet is the filter probably was a defect.
Good on Jay for trying to make good on this and getting to the bottom of what happened.
I agree with both of you.
The OP is a very infrequent poster, so it fits that he hasn't been back to see the response from Fram.
His subject title is OTT, but that alone isn't enough to condemn him. Remember, an infrequent poster is more likely to be influenced by the unfair reputation that Fram have than a more active member would. His reaction is perhaps understandable when he found the state of the filter on his vehicle.
Equally, you can't blame Motorking from being frustrated and suspecting that this could be a hoax. But to claim it is a hoax would mean it is quite elaborate as mentioned by the two posters I have quoted. Just don't see how it fits that a very infrequent poster would suddenly decide to do such a thing. What and where is the motivation?
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Pictures are worth a thousand words. The end cap is smooth where there is no media. He would have had to spend a lot of time to get that glue off the fiber end cap after sectioning out the media. If one bothered to click on OP's user name they would see he hasn't been on this site for a few weeks, about when he posted the findings. His other posts show he is a reasonable person figuring out oil filters, the ones I read like his write up on opened filters. The one where someone said the Wix combo valve bypasses oil constantly through the holes in it. Too bad Wix doesn't send a person here to make a rebuttal.
Originally Posted By: sir1900
Originally Posted By: Lubener
Not responding because the situation is likely phoney and he cut the section out with a razor.
I'm not so sure about that. The glue that holds the media to the endcaps is so strong that it would be near impossible to remove a portion of the media without any residual media left on the endcap.
My bet is the filter probably was a defect.
Good on Jay for trying to make good on this and getting to the bottom of what happened.
I agree with both of you.
The OP is a very infrequent poster, so it fits that he hasn't been back to see the response from Fram.
His subject title is OTT, but that alone isn't enough to condemn him. Remember, an infrequent poster is more likely to be influenced by the unfair reputation that Fram have than a more active member would. His reaction is perhaps understandable when he found the state of the filter on his vehicle.
Equally, you can't blame Motorking from being frustrated and suspecting that this could be a hoax. But to claim it is a hoax would mean it is quite elaborate as mentioned by the two posters I have quoted. Just don't see how it fits that a very infrequent poster would suddenly decide to do such a thing. What and where is the motivation?
CharlieBauer - The OP was responsive until his last post on 05/07. That would be 12 days ago. Things do happen in life.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Pictures are worth a thousand words. The end cap is smooth where there is no media. He would have had to spend a lot of time to get that glue off the fiber end cap after sectioning out the media. If one bothered to click on OP's user name they would see he hasn't been on this site for a few weeks, about when he posted the findings. His other posts show he is a reasonable person figuring out oil filters, the ones I read like his write up on opened filters. The one where someone said the Wix combo valve bypasses oil constantly through the holes in it. Too bad Wix doesn't send a person here to make a rebuttal.
Originally Posted By: sir1900
Originally Posted By: Lubener
Not responding because the situation is likely phoney and he cut the section out with a razor.
I'm not so sure about that. The glue that holds the media to the endcaps is so strong that it would be near impossible to remove a portion of the media without any residual media left on the endcap.
My bet is the filter probably was a defect.
Good on Jay for trying to make good on this and getting to the bottom of what happened.
I agree with both of you.
The OP is a very infrequent poster, so it fits that he hasn't been back to see the response from Fram.
His subject title is OTT, but that alone isn't enough to condemn him. Remember, an infrequent poster is more likely to be influenced by the unfair reputation that Fram have than a more active member would. His reaction is perhaps understandable when he found the state of the filter on his vehicle.
Equally, you can't blame Motorking from being frustrated and suspecting that this could be a hoax. But to claim it is a hoax would mean it is quite elaborate as mentioned by the two posters I have quoted. Just don't see how it fits that a very infrequent poster would suddenly decide to do such a thing. What and where is the motivation?
CharlieBauer - The OP was responsive until his last post on 05/07. That would be 12 days ago. Things do happen in life.
Things do happen in life, but as Jay stated, they've tried a few means to contact them. Then again, I'd like to think someone wouldn't be bored or miserable enough in life to waste time on a hoax like this.
WellOiled is right. OP is an infrequent poster plus they have been a BITOG member for some time. I'll still be waiting on the results.
WellOiled is right. OP is an infrequent poster plus they have been a BITOG member for some time. I'll still be waiting on the results.
Well I have to say we have tried very hard to reach this guy. He was very quick to claim "FRAM is garbage" and yet does not respond to public or private messages. There is nothing else we can do to resolve this unless we can see and evaluate the filter. He cared enough to hop on here and post but now is not interested in the cause?
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Well I have to say we have tried very hard to reach this guy. He was very quick to claim "FRAM is garbage" and yet does not respond to public or private messages. There is nothing else we can do to resolve this unless we can see and evaluate the filter. He cared enough to hop on here and post but now is not interested in the cause?
Hiya Jay, good to see you around. Heck I thought you might have retired by now as I just did recently lol.
Anyway, as Jay knows, I used to be a "Fram is garbage" guy too and reposted a lot of photos/videos of supposedly bad Fram quality. It took a while but I finally figured out that was I was only basing my anti-Fram opinion on the typical Internet [censored] written by those with some sort of an agenda.
I was pretty embarrassed after being picked out of the blue to visit Fram's R&D center in Ohio. It might have been Jay, above, who had something to do with that lol.
Anyway, this is an article I wrote afterwards. I'm a hardcore Jeeper so this article was posted several years ago in a couple Jeep-oriented forums I am active in. Here is is for what it's worth. I have been a reader of this forum for years but have avoided commenting on oil here since I'm just not all that into oil other than believing that all modern engine oils are now pretty superb and that I'd run any major brand multi-weight oil in my vehicles without worry.
"Eating crow, Fram oil filters, and my visit to Fram's R&D facility in Dayton Ohio
The subject of oil filters, like conventional vs. synthetic oil, is an emotional subject for many. I have to admit that over the past 10-15 years, I was caught up in the oil filter debates and formed some very strong opinions… particularly about Fram’s oil filters. Based on what I had seen posted on the Internet, I became a fairly vocal anti-Fram oil filter type individual.
Personally, I had settled on AC-Delco and Purolator’s oil filters and they are what I had been running in all my vehicles. I was comfortable for many years with my opinion that AC-Delco, Purolator, Wix, etc. oil filters were good and that Fram was bad.
Much to my personal embarrassment, I recently learned that I have been wrong about Fram’s oil filters.
Through a friendship formed over several years with Jay Buckley, Technical Manager and Trainer for Autolite, a sister company to Fram, I was one of ten “journalists” (their word, not mine) invited to tour Fram’s Research and Development facilities in Dayton Ohio.
We were to be the first-ever outsiders to be granted access, much less be given a full in-depth tour with presentations by Fram’s top engineers and staff. The other nine members of my group were primarily made up of automotive magazine editors, with a university petroleum educator (a VERY impressive individual) in the group as well.
I was half-expecting a sales job on why Fram was so great. I did not get one.
Instead, we were introduced to Gary Bilski, Fram’s Chief Filtration Engineer who was to be our host and leader for the day’s tour of their R&D facility. Gary had spent the majority of his career with Fram and it soon became clear he is a true expert on oil (and air) filtration. Gary turned out to be no salesman there to turn us around on Fram’s filters. He is an engineer by education and doesn’t have a sales bone in his body.
We began the day in a conference room with introductions, an informal discussion on current filtration technology, and what we would be seeing. I came prepared to ask some very tough questions, complete with URL addresses and printouts of the various anti-Fram information I had bookmarked over the years.
It turned out I needn’t have bothered bringing my own ammunition. Fram’s engineers soon got to all that and began showing us on a large overhead display the same exact web pages and anti-Fram reports I was going to ask them about.
The very first anti-Fram video they brought up and showed to us was the toughest one and the one I was most anxious to ask about… this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX0xrqvlsNI&feature=player_embedded (sorry that video link is now dead)
I was shocked Gary Bilski brought that one up so soon in our meeting; it was a [censored] video that could not have been a tougher subject for them to have to address. Gary and several others from Fram spoke after the video was over and basically said the video was true and it was a very embarrassing one for them. What? Wow! Fram actually admitted what that video showed was factual and they were all greatly embarrassed over it. It was a tough one for them.
Then Gary further explained the video had to be showing an oil filter manufactured more than five years ago because such a filter could not make it past their current vastly improved Quality Control program. What is different now vs. before five years ago? Fram installed a series of computerized “machine vision” systems throughout their manufacturing facility. Their new machine vision systems now visually inspect every single filter throughout the manufacturing process for any variances and reject any with problems. If you know how machine vision systems work, you’ll understand they are highly effective at picking up on any abnormalities, even those barely perceptible to the human eye. So that type of problem, the non-secured filtration material, as well other manufacturing problems. will no longer make it past their significantly improved Quality Control system.
We watched and discussed other videos and it soon became clear that the others simply weren’t true. For example, one showed a really ugly sludge issue that was hysterically blamed on the Fram oil filter but it didn’t take a genius to realize the oil just hadn’t been changed in years.
One early subject we brought up was Fram’s use of cardboard end caps. Gary (again, their Chief Engineer) was prepared and covered that subject thoroughly. He explained how the pleated filtration material, which is flexible, is glued to the caps and that the added flex of the end caps prevents the pleated filtration material from pulling loose. Here’s a good example that adds credence to Gary’s explanation… think flexible control arms vs. non-flexible control arms that are well known to tear control arm mounts away from what they are welded to. They use a fiber end cap for the Extra Guard and Tough Guard simply because it holds better than if it were to be glued to inflexible metal end caps.
The below photo I took shows Fram’s Extra Guard, Tough Guard, and Extended Guard filters.
Fram does use steel end caps on the Extended Guard oil filter but get away with that because the pleated filtration material used inside the Extended Guard is reinforced with a metal screen. That type of filter is designed for those who don’t change their filter as frequently as most of us here do. What you gain in filtration life, you lose in filtration efficiency though… the Extended Guard has a 97% filtration efficiency vs. a 99% filtration efficiency with their Tough Guard filter. Their lowest-cost Extra Guard has a 95% filtration efficiency rating. Some "premium" oil filters only have a 95% filtration filtration efficiency, what does that tell you?
How do they come up with that Efficiency rating? By adding very precise amounts of specific sizes (measured in microns) of laboratory-quality “dirt” (media) to the oil and then measuring what is left in the oil after the filtration process. The test equipment I saw gave direct readouts of the oil filter’s efficiency. You could actually see the various efficiencies of the filters being tested on lab equipment like below.
So for example, let's say they pour exactly 100 grams of 10 micron laboratory grade media into the oil to be filtered. After the test is complete, they measure how much of the 100 grams of the lab media is left. If 99 grams have been filtered out, the filter is said to have 99% efficiency.
You can also see the nitrile anti-drainback valve on top of the Extra Guard filter on the left and the silicone anti-drainback valve on the right in the Extended Guard. The center filter is the Tough Guard and it gets the silicone anti-drainback valve.
Nitrile is not as desirable to use in this job as silicone is but keep in mind Fram only use Nitrile in their entry-level lowest cost Extra Guard filter. Nitrile only starts to harden at around 258 degrees so for most conditions, it is ok. However, silicone is good to at least 400 degrees. For that reason, I personally would stick with an oil filter that uses a silicone anti-drainback valve. With Fram, that includes the Tough Guard, Extended Guard, and High Mileage filters.
But just so you know, I learned that even their nitrile anti-drain back valves are tested to over one million cycles.
This is where, into the vat on the right, lab-grade “dirt” (various micron sizes like 4-20) is added and tested to see how much the filter can filter out. Out of sight to the right is the computer that runs the test and shows the filter’s efficiency directly on a digital readout.
It was very interesting to note that Fram’s Tough Guard filter, which has a 99% filtration efficiency, was actually outperforming and out-filtering some far more expensive filters from Fram’s competitors. The R&D facility had a large assortment of the competition’s filters there being tested. Fram continually compares their filters against the competition which is very smart.
One of the more interesting series of tests were pressure tests that show how well the filter can contain the pressures oil filters can be subjected to. This particular piece of test equipment continually ups the oil pressure until the oil filter ruptures. We saw several cycles of tests and as I recall, the filters were withstanding 340+ psi of pressure before they blew out.
You could see the can swelling up as the pressure increased, it was pretty cool. The blowout was pretty impressive, it made everyone jump.
The below test apparatus was a pressure cycling machine that continually and repeatedly cycles the oil pressure 0-300+ psi over one million times. Each location has a digital readout over the top of each filter and I could see they were already over the million cycle mark. The pressure cycles made the filter cans swell in and out… spooky appearing, kind of like a row of beating hearts.
This is their Shake & Bake machine which violently shakes and vibrates oil filters as they are repeatedly cycled with low and high oil pressures.
Oil pressures vary widely on our vehicles. It isn’t unusual to see 0-125 psi spikes, especially on cold days when the oil’s viscosity is thick. Other testing systems cycle the oil filters from -60 to >300f degrees.
There are a whole lot of various lab testing systems scattered throughout the facility and I honestly don’t know what many of them do, we didn’t have time to stop to watch each one of them work or have their functions explained.
But for your viewing pleasure, here are some of Fram’s other testing systems we saw as we were shown around.
This is part of the group that was there with me that day …
That’s me second from the right and standing next to me on the right (to my left) is Autolite Technical Manager, Trainer and all-around good guy Jay Buckley. Jay did all of Autolite’s ignition system and spark plug video training courses I have taken so it was very cool to have finally met him.
What was my final conclusion? As stated early above, that I had been wrong about Fram. It was, frankly, embarrassing since I had been so anti-Fram oil filter for so many years… as some here still are. After having seen first-hand all the testing they put their filters through, the efficiencies of their filters vs. some very expensive oil filters, I changed my mind about Fram. It was a good lesson that serves to reinforce the fact that not everything we read on the Internet is true or at least is greatly exaggerated.
I fully expect a few to accuse me of having sold out to Fram after my visit. That’s ok, I have seen first-hand what no one else here or anyone else outside of Fram has seen before. Again, my group of ten was the first outside group to have ever been invited to tour their R&D facility.
I too was anti-Fram and it wasn’t easy to do so but I have been turned around. I have to eat crow for a few others as well. Mrblaine has been telling me the same thing for years, that Fram’s filters are fine and that the internet claims are either false or grossly exaggerated. Blaine, you were right.
In closing, I did something 4 weeks ago that would have been unthinkable to me only a few months ago. My wife’s pride and joy, her Lexus LS-430, needed an oil change. It got its usual 5 quarts of 5W-30 Valvoline engine oil but this time, I installed a Fram Tough Guard oil filter. That crow I ate at the cash register that day while buying the Fram oil filter wasn’t the best I have tasted over the years. That isn’t to say I’ll only run Fram oil filters from now on but I will say I will happily run their Tough Guard oil filter in any of my vehicles.
Well I have to say we have tried very hard to reach this guy. He was very quick to claim "FRAM is garbage" and yet does not respond to public or private messages. There is nothing else we can do to resolve this unless we can see and evaluate the filter. He cared enough to hop on here and post but now is not interested in the cause?
Hiya Jay, good to see you around. Heck I thought you might have retired by now as I just did recently lol.
Anyway, as Jay knows, I used to be a "Fram is garbage" guy too and reposted a lot of photos/videos of supposedly bad Fram quality. It took a while but I finally figured out that was I was only basing my anti-Fram opinion on the typical Internet [censored] written by those with some sort of an agenda.
I was pretty embarrassed after being picked out of the blue to visit Fram's R&D center in Ohio. It might have been Jay, above, who had something to do with that lol.
Anyway, this is an article I wrote afterwards. I'm a hardcore Jeeper so this article was posted several years ago in a couple Jeep-oriented forums I am active in. Here is is for what it's worth. I have been a reader of this forum for years but have avoided commenting on oil here since I'm just not all that into oil other than believing that all modern engine oils are now pretty superb and that I'd run any major brand multi-weight oil in my vehicles without worry.
"Eating crow, Fram oil filters, and my visit to Fram's R&D facility in Dayton Ohio
The subject of oil filters, like conventional vs. synthetic oil, is an emotional subject for many. I have to admit that over the past 10-15 years, I was caught up in the oil filter debates and formed some very strong opinions… particularly about Fram’s oil filters. Based on what I had seen posted on the Internet, I became a fairly vocal anti-Fram oil filter type individual.
Personally, I had settled on AC-Delco and Purolator’s oil filters and they are what I had been running in all my vehicles. I was comfortable for many years with my opinion that AC-Delco, Purolator, Wix, etc. oil filters were good and that Fram was bad.
Much to my personal embarrassment, I recently learned that I have been wrong about Fram’s oil filters.
Through a friendship formed over several years with Jay Buckley, Technical Manager and Trainer for Autolite, a sister company to Fram, I was one of ten “journalists” (their word, not mine) invited to tour Fram’s Research and Development facilities in Dayton Ohio.
We were to be the first-ever outsiders to be granted access, much less be given a full in-depth tour with presentations by Fram’s top engineers and staff. The other nine members of my group were primarily made up of automotive magazine editors, with a university petroleum educator (a VERY impressive individual) in the group as well.
I was half-expecting a sales job on why Fram was so great. I did not get one.
Instead, we were introduced to Gary Bilski, Fram’s Chief Filtration Engineer who was to be our host and leader for the day’s tour of their R&D facility. Gary had spent the majority of his career with Fram and it soon became clear he is a true expert on oil (and air) filtration. Gary turned out to be no salesman there to turn us around on Fram’s filters. He is an engineer by education and doesn’t have a sales bone in his body.
We began the day in a conference room with introductions, an informal discussion on current filtration technology, and what we would be seeing. I came prepared to ask some very tough questions, complete with URL addresses and printouts of the various anti-Fram information I had bookmarked over the years.
It turned out I needn’t have bothered bringing my own ammunition. Fram’s engineers soon got to all that and began showing us on a large overhead display the same exact web pages and anti-Fram reports I was going to ask them about.
The very first anti-Fram video they brought up and showed to us was the toughest one and the one I was most anxious to ask about… this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX0xrqvlsNI&feature=player_embedded (sorry that video link is now dead)
I was shocked Gary Bilski brought that one up so soon in our meeting; it was a [censored] video that could not have been a tougher subject for them to have to address. Gary and several others from Fram spoke after the video was over and basically said the video was true and it was a very embarrassing one for them. What? Wow! Fram actually admitted what that video showed was factual and they were all greatly embarrassed over it. It was a tough one for them.
Then Gary further explained the video had to be showing an oil filter manufactured more than five years ago because such a filter could not make it past their current vastly improved Quality Control program. What is different now vs. before five years ago? Fram installed a series of computerized “machine vision” systems throughout their manufacturing facility. Their new machine vision systems now visually inspect every single filter throughout the manufacturing process for any variances and reject any with problems. If you know how machine vision systems work, you’ll understand they are highly effective at picking up on any abnormalities, even those barely perceptible to the human eye. So that type of problem, the non-secured filtration material, as well other manufacturing problems. will no longer make it past their significantly improved Quality Control system.
We watched and discussed other videos and it soon became clear that the others simply weren’t true. For example, one showed a really ugly sludge issue that was hysterically blamed on the Fram oil filter but it didn’t take a genius to realize the oil just hadn’t been changed in years.
One early subject we brought up was Fram’s use of cardboard end caps. Gary (again, their Chief Engineer) was prepared and covered that subject thoroughly. He explained how the pleated filtration material, which is flexible, is glued to the caps and that the added flex of the end caps prevents the pleated filtration material from pulling loose. Here’s a good example that adds credence to Gary’s explanation… think flexible control arms vs. non-flexible control arms that are well known to tear control arm mounts away from what they are welded to. They use a fiber end cap for the Extra Guard and Tough Guard simply because it holds better than if it were to be glued to inflexible metal end caps.
The below photo I took shows Fram’s Extra Guard, Tough Guard, and Extended Guard filters.
Fram does use steel end caps on the Extended Guard oil filter but get away with that because the pleated filtration material used inside the Extended Guard is reinforced with a metal screen. That type of filter is designed for those who don’t change their filter as frequently as most of us here do. What you gain in filtration life, you lose in filtration efficiency though… the Extended Guard has a 97% filtration efficiency vs. a 99% filtration efficiency with their Tough Guard filter. Their lowest-cost Extra Guard has a 95% filtration efficiency rating. Some "premium" oil filters only have a 95% filtration filtration efficiency, what does that tell you?
How do they come up with that Efficiency rating? By adding very precise amounts of specific sizes (measured in microns) of laboratory-quality “dirt” (media) to the oil and then measuring what is left in the oil after the filtration process. The test equipment I saw gave direct readouts of the oil filter’s efficiency. You could actually see the various efficiencies of the filters being tested on lab equipment like below.
So for example, let's say they pour exactly 100 grams of 10 micron laboratory grade media into the oil to be filtered. After the test is complete, they measure how much of the 100 grams of the lab media is left. If 99 grams have been filtered out, the filter is said to have 99% efficiency.
You can also see the nitrile anti-drainback valve on top of the Extra Guard filter on the left and the silicone anti-drainback valve on the right in the Extended Guard. The center filter is the Tough Guard and it gets the silicone anti-drainback valve.
Nitrile is not as desirable to use in this job as silicone is but keep in mind Fram only use Nitrile in their entry-level lowest cost Extra Guard filter. Nitrile only starts to harden at around 258 degrees so for most conditions, it is ok. However, silicone is good to at least 400 degrees. For that reason, I personally would stick with an oil filter that uses a silicone anti-drainback valve. With Fram, that includes the Tough Guard, Extended Guard, and High Mileage filters.
But just so you know, I learned that even their nitrile anti-drain back valves are tested to over one million cycles.
This is where, into the vat on the right, lab-grade “dirt” (various micron sizes like 4-20) is added and tested to see how much the filter can filter out. Out of sight to the right is the computer that runs the test and shows the filter’s efficiency directly on a digital readout.
It was very interesting to note that Fram’s Tough Guard filter, which has a 99% filtration efficiency, was actually outperforming and out-filtering some far more expensive filters from Fram’s competitors. The R&D facility had a large assortment of the competition’s filters there being tested. Fram continually compares their filters against the competition which is very smart.
One of the more interesting series of tests were pressure tests that show how well the filter can contain the pressures oil filters can be subjected to. This particular piece of test equipment continually ups the oil pressure until the oil filter ruptures. We saw several cycles of tests and as I recall, the filters were withstanding 340+ psi of pressure before they blew out.
You could see the can swelling up as the pressure increased, it was pretty cool. The blowout was pretty impressive, it made everyone jump.
The below test apparatus was a pressure cycling machine that continually and repeatedly cycles the oil pressure 0-300+ psi over one million times. Each location has a digital readout over the top of each filter and I could see they were already over the million cycle mark. The pressure cycles made the filter cans swell in and out… spooky appearing, kind of like a row of beating hearts.
This is their Shake & Bake machine which violently shakes and vibrates oil filters as they are repeatedly cycled with low and high oil pressures.
Oil pressures vary widely on our vehicles. It isn’t unusual to see 0-125 psi spikes, especially on cold days when the oil’s viscosity is thick. Other testing systems cycle the oil filters from -60 to >300f degrees.
There are a whole lot of various lab testing systems scattered throughout the facility and I honestly don’t know what many of them do, we didn’t have time to stop to watch each one of them work or have their functions explained.
But for your viewing pleasure, here are some of Fram’s other testing systems we saw as we were shown around.
This is part of the group that was there with me that day …
That’s me second from the right and standing next to me on the right (to my left) is Autolite Technical Manager, Trainer and all-around good guy Jay Buckley. Jay did all of Autolite’s ignition system and spark plug video training courses I have taken so it was very cool to have finally met him.
What was my final conclusion? As stated early above, that I had been wrong about Fram. It was, frankly, embarrassing since I had been so anti-Fram oil filter for so many years… as some here still are. After having seen first-hand all the testing they put their filters through, the efficiencies of their filters vs. some very expensive oil filters, I changed my mind about Fram. It was a good lesson that serves to reinforce the fact that not everything we read on the Internet is true or at least is greatly exaggerated.
I fully expect a few to accuse me of having sold out to Fram after my visit. That’s ok, I have seen first-hand what no one else here or anyone else outside of Fram has seen before. Again, my group of ten was the first outside group to have ever been invited to tour their R&D facility.
I too was anti-Fram and it wasn’t easy to do so but I have been turned around. I have to eat crow for a few others as well. Mrblaine has been telling me the same thing for years, that Fram’s filters are fine and that the internet claims are either false or grossly exaggerated. Blaine, you were right.
In closing, I did something 4 weeks ago that would have been unthinkable to me only a few months ago. My wife’s pride and joy, her Lexus LS-430, needed an oil change. It got its usual 5 quarts of 5W-30 Valvoline engine oil but this time, I installed a Fram Tough Guard oil filter. That crow I ate at the cash register that day while buying the Fram oil filter wasn’t the best I have tasted over the years. That isn’t to say I’ll only run Fram oil filters from now on but I will say I will happily run their Tough Guard oil filter in any of my vehicles.
Last edited:
I have seen the factory that the most EG's are made in - This is a total fake / spoof.
There is no way it would make it through the assembly line.
Honestly I thought people had better things to do with their time than this - - - - look what I found garbage
The OP will never take it to Fram/Honeywell - they will laugh him off the phone.
There is no way it would make it through the assembly line.
Honestly I thought people had better things to do with their time than this - - - - look what I found garbage
The OP will never take it to Fram/Honeywell - they will laugh him off the phone.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
This was a failure of the machines. Specifically, I don't know why the image sensor wouldn't have caught it, unless they don't use one to check that full assembly was done. In other words, they should have a camera hooked up to a computer to assess how it looks. (Industrial processes often use optical or image sensing to find irregularities in real-time.) google visual quality control in manufacturing if you want to know more
Originally Posted By: Jerry_Bransford
Then Gary further explained the video had to be showing an oil filter manufactured more than five years ago because such a filter could not make it past their current vastly improved Quality Control program. What is different now vs. before five years ago? Fram installed a series of computerized “machine vision” systems throughout their manufacturing facility. Their new machine vision systems now visually inspect every single filter throughout the manufacturing process for any variances and reject any with problems. If you know how machine vision systems work, you’ll understand they are highly effective at picking up on any abnormalities, even those barely perceptible to the human eye. So that type of problem, the non-secured filtration material, as well other manufacturing problems. will no longer make it past their significantly improved Quality Control system.
Thanks for confirming my expectations about QA via image processing (vision systems).
Its still possible for the vision system to go awry though. Not likely, but possible. Is the line stopped if the vision system computers go down?
Originally Posted By: nicholas
I have seen the factory that the most EG's are made in - This is a total fake / spoof.There is no way it would make it through the assembly line.
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
But to claim it is a hoax would mean it is quite elaborate as mentioned by the two posters I have quoted. Just don't see how it fits that a very infrequent poster would suddenly decide to do such a thing. What and where is the motivation?
Its a little suspicious that a person who happens to want to post a bunch of filter innards on the internet also just happens to find the rare missing-media Sasquatch. Too coincidental maybe.
This was a failure of the machines. Specifically, I don't know why the image sensor wouldn't have caught it, unless they don't use one to check that full assembly was done. In other words, they should have a camera hooked up to a computer to assess how it looks. (Industrial processes often use optical or image sensing to find irregularities in real-time.) google visual quality control in manufacturing if you want to know more
Originally Posted By: Jerry_Bransford
Then Gary further explained the video had to be showing an oil filter manufactured more than five years ago because such a filter could not make it past their current vastly improved Quality Control program. What is different now vs. before five years ago? Fram installed a series of computerized “machine vision” systems throughout their manufacturing facility. Their new machine vision systems now visually inspect every single filter throughout the manufacturing process for any variances and reject any with problems. If you know how machine vision systems work, you’ll understand they are highly effective at picking up on any abnormalities, even those barely perceptible to the human eye. So that type of problem, the non-secured filtration material, as well other manufacturing problems. will no longer make it past their significantly improved Quality Control system.
Thanks for confirming my expectations about QA via image processing (vision systems).
Its still possible for the vision system to go awry though. Not likely, but possible. Is the line stopped if the vision system computers go down?
Originally Posted By: nicholas
I have seen the factory that the most EG's are made in - This is a total fake / spoof.There is no way it would make it through the assembly line.
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
But to claim it is a hoax would mean it is quite elaborate as mentioned by the two posters I have quoted. Just don't see how it fits that a very infrequent poster would suddenly decide to do such a thing. What and where is the motivation?
Its a little suspicious that a person who happens to want to post a bunch of filter innards on the internet also just happens to find the rare missing-media Sasquatch. Too coincidental maybe.
To Jerry above (I didn't quote your huge post)-the Extended Guard filters have actually been replaced by the Ultras for a few years now, the Ultras now have 99% @ 20 micron ratings as well as the Tough Guards, and I have personally run one 20K miles (the xB in my sig with an oversize XG3600). It looked like it could have gone a lot further than 20K if I wanted.
- Status
