Correction to my original post. This OCI was actually over a 5 month period, not 4.
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2013 Nissan Rogue, MC 5w-30, 4,400 mi
- Thread starter TheOilWizard
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I think your report looks great and typical of Motorcraft semi-synthetic oils. Ten years ago I found a dirt cheap deal on Motorcraft 5W-20 semi-synthetic oil and decided to search for UOA on the site. I found this one which was 10,000 miles, short trips and over a winter.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1561747/1
Wear metals were very low, TBN 1.3, OX % .4. I would consider this to be at the brink of being used up.
Granted this is for 5W-20 in a Honda but metallic wear numbers look similar to your application. If I were driving 12,000 miles per year I would change the oil July and November without any worries. You probably could run it 8 months-8,000 miles and feel very comfortable. I am retired and drive 3K miles per year. I change the Motorcraft 5W-20 annually.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1561747/1
Wear metals were very low, TBN 1.3, OX % .4. I would consider this to be at the brink of being used up.
Granted this is for 5W-20 in a Honda but metallic wear numbers look similar to your application. If I were driving 12,000 miles per year I would change the oil July and November without any worries. You probably could run it 8 months-8,000 miles and feel very comfortable. I am retired and drive 3K miles per year. I change the Motorcraft 5W-20 annually.
Bear in mind that Blackstone are an outlier when it comes to saying you can let TBN go down to 1.
PQIA say 3 is the minimum and many other labs say 3 or above.
Now, plenty of Blackstone UOAs with TBN below 3 do obviously exist which show low wear metals and with insolubles below the Blackstone threshold. But one has to wonder why everybody else disagrees with them.
Also note that viscosity first goes down before going up. When viscosity increases, that means the oil is oxidizing. So if you had a 5w30 and the UOA shows a viscosity at 100c of 9.3, does that mean it is still on the way down, or does that mean it sheared below that and is on the way back up?
Very hard to tell on extended ocis if you take just a single UOA.
PQIA say 3 is the minimum and many other labs say 3 or above.
Now, plenty of Blackstone UOAs with TBN below 3 do obviously exist which show low wear metals and with insolubles below the Blackstone threshold. But one has to wonder why everybody else disagrees with them.
Also note that viscosity first goes down before going up. When viscosity increases, that means the oil is oxidizing. So if you had a 5w30 and the UOA shows a viscosity at 100c of 9.3, does that mean it is still on the way down, or does that mean it sheared below that and is on the way back up?
Very hard to tell on extended ocis if you take just a single UOA.
TheOilWizard
Thread starter
Ironically, I had just read that on the PQIA website and intended to ask about it. All of the info provided is helpful, but proceed further and give me a one sentence summary of your opinion. What would you do if this was your vehicle and this was your UOA?
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Bear in mind that Blackstone are an outlier when it comes to saying you can let TBN go down to 1.
PQIA say 3 is the minimum and many other labs say 3 or above.
Now, plenty of Blackstone UOAs with TBN below 3 do obviously exist which show low wear metals and with insolubles below the Blackstone threshold. But one has to wonder why everybody else disagrees with them.
Also note that viscosity first goes down before going up. When viscosity increases, that means the oil is oxidizing. So if you had a 5w30 and the UOA shows a viscosity at 100c of 9.3, does that mean it is still on the way down, or does that mean it sheared below that and is on the way back up?
Very hard to tell on extended ocis if you take just a single UOA.
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Bear in mind that Blackstone are an outlier when it comes to saying you can let TBN go down to 1.
PQIA say 3 is the minimum and many other labs say 3 or above.
Now, plenty of Blackstone UOAs with TBN below 3 do obviously exist which show low wear metals and with insolubles below the Blackstone threshold. But one has to wonder why everybody else disagrees with them.
Also note that viscosity first goes down before going up. When viscosity increases, that means the oil is oxidizing. So if you had a 5w30 and the UOA shows a viscosity at 100c of 9.3, does that mean it is still on the way down, or does that mean it sheared below that and is on the way back up?
Very hard to tell on extended ocis if you take just a single UOA.
TheOilWizard
Thread starter
Is it safe to say that a full syn, like QSUD, would allow me to go throughout a similar interval with a higher TBN and viscosity, all things being equal? (since those are the 2 areas of concern)
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Why not try a full synthetic, like QSUD, and a 6 month or 7,500 mile OCI, and do an analysis? Should satisfy warranty requirements and give you a data point if you want to run longer OCI when out of warranty. I would guess your TBN and viscosity would be fine.
Originally Posted By: TheOilWizard
give me a one sentence summary of your opinion. What would you do if this was your vehicle and this was your UOA?
Run a full syn 5w30 for no more than 6 months.
Why?
1) Warranty
2) Your UOA suggests TBN would be comfortable at the 6 month mark with a full syn
3) Full syns are more shear stable and have lower noacks than semi syns. Motorcraft oils in particular have high noacks and their 5w30 has sheared significantly in your case
4) Nissans are pretty tough on oil so extending significantly without uoas would not be prudent.
If I wanted to extend the oci outside of warranty, I would get a UOA at about 6250 miles. I'd use a lab that provides oxidation and nitration. I'd be tempted to use an extended oci oil like M1 EP.
give me a one sentence summary of your opinion. What would you do if this was your vehicle and this was your UOA?
Run a full syn 5w30 for no more than 6 months.
Why?
1) Warranty
2) Your UOA suggests TBN would be comfortable at the 6 month mark with a full syn
3) Full syns are more shear stable and have lower noacks than semi syns. Motorcraft oils in particular have high noacks and their 5w30 has sheared significantly in your case
4) Nissans are pretty tough on oil so extending significantly without uoas would not be prudent.
If I wanted to extend the oci outside of warranty, I would get a UOA at about 6250 miles. I'd use a lab that provides oxidation and nitration. I'd be tempted to use an extended oci oil like M1 EP.
TheOilWizard
Thread starter
Thanks. Do you feel I went a little too long with this oil?
Also, purely speculation, but what are the chances the service department used 5w-20 instead of 5w-30? They did tell me 5w-30 was used.
Also, purely speculation, but what are the chances the service department used 5w-20 instead of 5w-30? They did tell me 5w-30 was used.
TheOilWizard
Thread starter
In my case, since I don't have a Blackstone report, I am indeed "blind" on on this point, correct? With the data I have provided, would there be any indication of sludge outside of a thickening viscosity?
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: TheOilWizard
Thanks everyone for all of your responses.
Dnewton3, your point in regard to wear numbers and extended intervals is well taken.
However, are you able to address the later posts in that extended OCIs, while they do not increase wear numbers proportionally, can lead to sludge/varnish formation? I am genuinely interested in your view on this.
As to the topic of sludge and such, I'll remind everyone that the UOA will tell us how the oil is doing in terms of this as well. Blackstone will give you an "insolubles" count; it's essentially a combo of both soot and oxidation. Other services will separate out the soot and oxidation. But the point is that it's not like we're blind here. The inference some folks make is that while wear metals rates are low, it's possible that there is a dastardly build up of sludge going on in the engine. Well, if your soot/ox counts are low, I'd like to ask those folks where in the blazes they think that "build up of sludge" is coming from? If it does not exist in the oil UOA, then how in the heck can it exist on the surfaces of the engine? Let's look at a few potential conditions and analyze the effects:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: TheOilWizard
Thanks everyone for all of your responses.
Dnewton3, your point in regard to wear numbers and extended intervals is well taken.
However, are you able to address the later posts in that extended OCIs, while they do not increase wear numbers proportionally, can lead to sludge/varnish formation? I am genuinely interested in your view on this.
As to the topic of sludge and such, I'll remind everyone that the UOA will tell us how the oil is doing in terms of this as well. Blackstone will give you an "insolubles" count; it's essentially a combo of both soot and oxidation. Other services will separate out the soot and oxidation. But the point is that it's not like we're blind here. The inference some folks make is that while wear metals rates are low, it's possible that there is a dastardly build up of sludge going on in the engine. Well, if your soot/ox counts are low, I'd like to ask those folks where in the blazes they think that "build up of sludge" is coming from? If it does not exist in the oil UOA, then how in the heck can it exist on the surfaces of the engine? Let's look at a few potential conditions and analyze the effects:
Per Motorcraft 5W-30 viscosity 100C= 10.8
Per Motorcraft 5W-20 viscosity 100C= 8.7
Your viscosity after 5 months, 4400 miles= 8.6
Certainly a solid 20 viscosity now. Without knowing what was put in, hard to say.
Do you have a service plan that pays for oil changes at the dealership? May be worth finding a place you can verify what they are putting in or change it yourself, if you are able.
Per Motorcraft 5W-20 viscosity 100C= 8.7
Your viscosity after 5 months, 4400 miles= 8.6
Certainly a solid 20 viscosity now. Without knowing what was put in, hard to say.
Do you have a service plan that pays for oil changes at the dealership? May be worth finding a place you can verify what they are putting in or change it yourself, if you are able.
Short changed Pennzoil Pure Plus in a 2.5L for your review.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...Pla#Post3435520
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...Pla#Post3435520
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: TheOilWizard
Thanks. Do you feel I went a little too long with this oil?
I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Originally Posted By: TheOilWizard
Also, purely speculation, but what are the chances the service department used 5w-20 instead of 5w-30? They did tell me 5w-30 was used.
Your vehicle specs 5w30 and it's a common grade so I'd say it's unlikely. The most likely way you got Motorcraft 5w20 is if you had the oil changed at the Ford dealer and they used their bulk oil by mistake.
You should probably research UOAs for your engine to see what results other people get. My feeling from everything I've seen is that Nissan's are tough on oil, hence my response to your "what would you do?" question as well as the significance of the Viscosity loss.
Thanks. Do you feel I went a little too long with this oil?
I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Originally Posted By: TheOilWizard
Also, purely speculation, but what are the chances the service department used 5w-20 instead of 5w-30? They did tell me 5w-30 was used.
Your vehicle specs 5w30 and it's a common grade so I'd say it's unlikely. The most likely way you got Motorcraft 5w20 is if you had the oil changed at the Ford dealer and they used their bulk oil by mistake.
You should probably research UOAs for your engine to see what results other people get. My feeling from everything I've seen is that Nissan's are tough on oil, hence my response to your "what would you do?" question as well as the significance of the Viscosity loss.
Originally Posted By: TheOilWizard
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: JBinKC
Na seems very high. Phillips uses boron as the main element in their detergent.
Agree. Unless the last OCI was on Valvoline/NAPA or one of the boutique sodium motor oils, the Na level shouldn't be like that.
This is completely possible as the previous oil change was at a Nissan dealership.
I don't think that amount of Sodium is explained by residual Valvoline.
Btw, what oil are you running now?
Lastly, I don't think a Nissan dealership would have put 5w20 in your vehicle.
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: JBinKC
Na seems very high. Phillips uses boron as the main element in their detergent.
Agree. Unless the last OCI was on Valvoline/NAPA or one of the boutique sodium motor oils, the Na level shouldn't be like that.
This is completely possible as the previous oil change was at a Nissan dealership.
I don't think that amount of Sodium is explained by residual Valvoline.
Btw, what oil are you running now?
Lastly, I don't think a Nissan dealership would have put 5w20 in your vehicle.
TheOilWizard
Thread starter
Originally Posted By: deoxy4
Short changed Pennzoil Pure Plus in a 2.5L for your review.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...Pla#Post3435520
Much appreciated.
Short changed Pennzoil Pure Plus in a 2.5L for your review.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...Pla#Post3435520
Much appreciated.
TheOilWizard
Thread starter
Allow me to clarify. My current fill is QSUD and was DIY, my previous fill was the MC with UOA from a Ford shop, and the change before that was at the Nissan dealership with an "unknown" oil. Let me know if that makes sense.
I think my viscosity falls in line with other QR25DE engines, because I've found (since my last post) multiple Rogue UOAs with similar mileage and similar viscosity. One example, the UOA had 5k miles with a full syn, and the viscosity was only .17 higher.
I think I'm just going to run a full syn (whatever is on sale) for 6mo/5k or so, and call it good.
I think my viscosity falls in line with other QR25DE engines, because I've found (since my last post) multiple Rogue UOAs with similar mileage and similar viscosity. One example, the UOA had 5k miles with a full syn, and the viscosity was only .17 higher.
I think I'm just going to run a full syn (whatever is on sale) for 6mo/5k or so, and call it good.
Last edited:
TheOilWizard
Thread starter
What would cause the high levels of sodium?
Originally Posted By: TheOilWizard
What would cause the high levels of sodium?
Usually it is coolant related.
But Valvoline oils and the oils they make for several other brands, including Napa, contain Sodium as a detergent.
However, the level of Sodium in your uoa is maybe half to a third of the amount it would be if you had such an oil and Motorcraft oils are not supposed to have sodium in them.
So it's from either of these or even a combination:
1) Large amount of leftover oil with sodium additive in the Nissan dealer provided oil and the Ford dealer doing an incomplete drain.
2) An abnormally high amount of Sodium in the Nissan dealer oil.
3) Coolant
4) Actual salt getting ingested into the oil
5) Top up oil
What would cause the high levels of sodium?
Usually it is coolant related.
But Valvoline oils and the oils they make for several other brands, including Napa, contain Sodium as a detergent.
However, the level of Sodium in your uoa is maybe half to a third of the amount it would be if you had such an oil and Motorcraft oils are not supposed to have sodium in them.
So it's from either of these or even a combination:
1) Large amount of leftover oil with sodium additive in the Nissan dealer provided oil and the Ford dealer doing an incomplete drain.
2) An abnormally high amount of Sodium in the Nissan dealer oil.
3) Coolant
4) Actual salt getting ingested into the oil
5) Top up oil
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