Never seen this sort of thing and thought I would share. Sounds like 15*F is well outside the temp range for 20w50.
VW Vanagon oil filter
oil filter collapse with 20w50 and 15* temps
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Never seen this sort of thing and thought I would share. Sounds like 15*F is well outside the temp range for 20w50.
VW Vanagon oil filter
There is nothing to indicate that the filter collapsed because of the use of 20w50 oil in 15* temperatures.
+15F ( -9C ) is pretty cold to be using 20W-50, but it isn't cold enough i think to cause something like that, it could be the oil but it could also be what Jimzz says whcih is that he used a lower bypass pec than what it calls for?
Originally Posted By: KoolGrandWizardL
There is nothing to indicate that the filter collapsed because of the use of 20w50 oil in 15* temperatures.
We are assuming you realize this is 15F
There is nothing to indicate that the filter collapsed because of the use of 20w50 oil in 15* temperatures.
We are assuming you realize this is 15F
Yikes.
Someone revved the engine when oil was honey. 5/16 dia bypass port inadequate. Sound like the engine oil pump bypass stuck too - if it has one
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Used wrong filter, got wrong result.
I submit wrong oil too. Probably too cold to flow through the bypass.
The other thread summed it up well.
- filter was downsized.
- viscosity grade was too high for operating conditions.
- potential problems with the engine.
- the filter failed but is not the cause.
Used wrong filter, got wrong result.
I submit wrong oil too. Probably too cold to flow through the bypass.
The other thread summed it up well.
- filter was downsized.
- viscosity grade was too high for operating conditions.
- potential problems with the engine.
- the filter failed but is not the cause.
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
+15F ( -9C ) is pretty cold to be using 20W-50, but it isn't cold enough i think to cause something like that, it could be the oil but it could also be what Jimzz says whcih is that he used a lower bypass pec than what it calls for?
20w-50 in Denver? I wouldn't even use it in Arizona.
The lower bypass spec should actually be better at protecting a filter from this kind of damage than the higher spec, but not in this case, obviously. The collapse, more than likely, happened over the course of several cold starts.
+15F ( -9C ) is pretty cold to be using 20W-50, but it isn't cold enough i think to cause something like that, it could be the oil but it could also be what Jimzz says whcih is that he used a lower bypass pec than what it calls for?
20w-50 in Denver? I wouldn't even use it in Arizona.
The lower bypass spec should actually be better at protecting a filter from this kind of damage than the higher spec, but not in this case, obviously. The collapse, more than likely, happened over the course of several cold starts.
Originally Posted By: funflyer
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
+15F ( -9C ) is pretty cold to be using 20W-50, but it isn't cold enough i think to cause something like that, it could be the oil but it could also be what Jimzz says whcih is that he used a lower bypass pec than what it calls for?
20w-50 in Denver? I wouldn't even use it in Arizona.
The lower bypass spec should actually be better at protecting a filter from this kind of damage than the higher spec, but not in this case, obviously. The collapse, more than likely, happened over the course of several cold starts.
Yes
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
+15F ( -9C ) is pretty cold to be using 20W-50, but it isn't cold enough i think to cause something like that, it could be the oil but it could also be what Jimzz says whcih is that he used a lower bypass pec than what it calls for?
20w-50 in Denver? I wouldn't even use it in Arizona.
The lower bypass spec should actually be better at protecting a filter from this kind of damage than the higher spec, but not in this case, obviously. The collapse, more than likely, happened over the course of several cold starts.
Yes
Lower by-pass would open earlier. Was not filters fault really. Oil pump by-pass stuck closed or blocked (like we do in race motors).
If running thick oil in cold temps, the solution is to use the largest filter that will fit. Larger media area will help oil pass more easily.
Also use better filter if available. WIX/Napa Gold is usually good. I know folks that get all excited about filtration efficiency, but too much of a good thing is also bad in this instance. Larger pore spaces will pass oil more easily too
If running thick oil in cold temps, the solution is to use the largest filter that will fit. Larger media area will help oil pass more easily.
Also use better filter if available. WIX/Napa Gold is usually good. I know folks that get all excited about filtration efficiency, but too much of a good thing is also bad in this instance. Larger pore spaces will pass oil more easily too
If the bypass opening is as large as the outlet pipe opening, no more than 8-11 psi should be applied to the center tube, right? Bypass means all goes around. Many filters have this tiny little bypass hole which works fine normally but not in extremes like partially clogged filters and thick oils. Another reason not to try and clog the filter before changing it.
I have a hard time believing that it was the oil that caused that, my old BMW oil chart shows 20W being OK down to 15 F or so. That doesn't mean it is going to wreck something below that, just be sub-optimal.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I have a hard time believing that it was the oil that caused that, my old BMW oil chart shows 20W being OK down to 15 F or so. That doesn't mean it is going to wreck something below that, just be sub-optimal.
The SAE viscosity grading is the first chart in the link below.
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Tribology/Viscosity.html
A 20W would be 4500 cP @ -10C (14F)cranking. So I think that would be borderline. If the OP reported 15F ambient at the time of the cold start (s), the sump could have been colder depending on the overnight low. I know pure speculation.
I have a hard time believing that it was the oil that caused that, my old BMW oil chart shows 20W being OK down to 15 F or so. That doesn't mean it is going to wreck something below that, just be sub-optimal.
The SAE viscosity grading is the first chart in the link below.
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Tribology/Viscosity.html
A 20W would be 4500 cP @ -10C (14F)cranking. So I think that would be borderline. If the OP reported 15F ambient at the time of the cold start (s), the sump could have been colder depending on the overnight low. I know pure speculation.
And the oil will flow using the path of least resistance.
DB_Cooper - I suspect your oil cooler is keeping the oil too cool to boil off the condensation. In a dome down filter orientation, condensation could build in the filter until it reaches the bypass valve. When the condensation freezes, the bypass can not open fast enough or far enough on a cold start.
Solutions abound.
Close off the cooler when cold, use a lower SAE grade oil, use the specified filter. Sump temperature has to get high enough to boil off condensation. Use a sump heater, watch cold start Rpms .
DB_Cooper - I suspect your oil cooler is keeping the oil too cool to boil off the condensation. In a dome down filter orientation, condensation could build in the filter until it reaches the bypass valve. When the condensation freezes, the bypass can not open fast enough or far enough on a cold start.
Solutions abound.
Close off the cooler when cold, use a lower SAE grade oil, use the specified filter. Sump temperature has to get high enough to boil off condensation. Use a sump heater, watch cold start Rpms .
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I've seen a filter can blow out at the seam, but I haven't seen a center tube collapse like that. I would suspect that something such as a pressure relief valve sticking caused the oil pressure to sky rocket which caused the failure. I can't see how at 15 degrees 20W-50 oil would cause the filter to fail.
The oil is likely only one piece of the puzzle. This also summarizes other user responses.
1. The filter size and capacity is smaller than what VW specified.
2. We do not know the actual oil conditions. It may have thickened. A UOA might shed some light.
3. We do not know the condition of this engine. It may be generating more dirt than average. And exceeding the capacity of the smaller filter.
4. Water is the kiss of death for cellulose. The filter media is a cellulose synthetic blend.
5. The oil cooler may be keeping the oil too cool to boil off the condensation and so it collects over time. Probably where least wanted.
6. If the oil pressure regulator is stuck closed the oil pump output will be promotional to RPMs. If the filter's bypass is stuck closed, then a very high dp will develop across the partially plugged media and the cage thus collapsing it.
If this were my vehicle I would take these steps:
+ use a lower viscosity oil in the cold months
+ use the specified filter
+ consider a full synthetic filter. It will be less effected by any condensation present.
+ change the oil to suit the seasonal temperature effectively reducing the OCI /FCI.
+ fix the cooler so it can be blocked or bypassed in the cooler months
+ check and repair the oil pressure regulator as needed
+ keep the RPMs low until the oil begins to warm up
1. The filter size and capacity is smaller than what VW specified.
2. We do not know the actual oil conditions. It may have thickened. A UOA might shed some light.
3. We do not know the condition of this engine. It may be generating more dirt than average. And exceeding the capacity of the smaller filter.
4. Water is the kiss of death for cellulose. The filter media is a cellulose synthetic blend.
5. The oil cooler may be keeping the oil too cool to boil off the condensation and so it collects over time. Probably where least wanted.
6. If the oil pressure regulator is stuck closed the oil pump output will be promotional to RPMs. If the filter's bypass is stuck closed, then a very high dp will develop across the partially plugged media and the cage thus collapsing it.
If this were my vehicle I would take these steps:
+ use a lower viscosity oil in the cold months
+ use the specified filter
+ consider a full synthetic filter. It will be less effected by any condensation present.
+ change the oil to suit the seasonal temperature effectively reducing the OCI /FCI.
+ fix the cooler so it can be blocked or bypassed in the cooler months
+ check and repair the oil pressure regulator as needed
+ keep the RPMs low until the oil begins to warm up
Looking at the Vanagon thread and a wix made element I have on my desk, there is no way oil bent those end caps as well as the tube due to differential pressure difference. Whatever you guys call it, I forgot, delta p or whatever. Like someone said the can seam should break open.
I think the filter element got positioned wrong in the machine that presses them together and the machine crushed it. Crushed the element, crimped the seam and on it went to it's box and to the store.
I think the filter element got positioned wrong in the machine that presses them together and the machine crushed it. Crushed the element, crimped the seam and on it went to it's box and to the store.
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