BMW M, Automatics to eliminate DCT and manuals

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wemay

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http://jalopnik.com/bmw-m-boss-says-high-powered-automatics-will-even-kill-1794558556


While fueling the need for cars with more horsepower, BMW’s M-division seems to have backed itself into a corner when it comes to offering a variety of transmissions. In a recent interview, a BMW exec indicated that the days are numbered for manual and DCT gearboxes.

Australian car blog Drive (not to be confused with The Drive), spoke with BMW M’s vice president of sales and marketing, Peter Quintus, about the future of manual and dual-clutch gearboxes and things do not look good.

Quintus says that durability concerns are the primary factor that may mean the end of three-pedal and DCT options in BMW’s most powerful models. He says that either transmission simply can’t handle the power from a long-term reliability perspective.

Of course, Mercedes has figured this out long ago with their AMG models that the only way to reliably deliver the insane amounts of power and torque was to use a conventional torque-converter automatic. Even though the DCT used to be able to shift faster, the new generation of automatics have closed that gap significantly. Here’s what Quintus said, from Drive:

“We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there’s a lot of technology in modern automatics,” he said.

“The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher.

“Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter.”
In regards manuals, Quintus is of the opinion that around 450 horsepower and 440 lb-ft is more or less the limit of manual gearbox durability, and once you hook up manual setups to motors that exceed that mark, longevity cannot be guaranteed. Now, this sounds quite odd considering here in America you can get manual gearboxes in cars with up to 707 HP.

So, why doesn’t BMW just use the U.S.-made transmissions that are clearly built with U.S. might and fortitude? Quintus told Drive:

“We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful.”
While I wouldn’t call the shift quality in a Corvette Z06 awful, it is true that you can’t have it both ways in terms of having a light shifter and a clutch that can handle over 500 HP.

Quintus closed the interview by telling Drive that he’s “not even sure the next generation of M3 and M4 models from BMW will have the option of a manual gearbox.”

Perhaps if BMW drivers really cared about keeping their manual gearboxes, they wouldn’t be so obsessed with having more power than their neighbor with an AMG Mercedes.
 
No mention of a CVT as a possibility either.
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Most people that buy high performance cars don't want to shift a manual transmission.

Even exotic sports cars no longer have a manual transmission.
 
No demand AND it's far more complicated to design traction, stability and skid control systems along with safety features with unpredictable human vs fully controlled transmission.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
No mention of a CVT as a possibility either.
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Not specifically, but CVT are fully automatic transmissions so i wouldn't exclude them outright.
 
CVT need a coupler at one end, as they aren't "infinitely" variable (except between the endstops).

So they need a clutch or a torque converter...hopefully the latter.
 
TC automatics taking over is something I can believe, especially after seeing what Mr. Koenigsegg has done with an advanced TC and a few electric motors.
 
Don't forget the planetary gearbox in the Prius. It acts like a CVT and only has a clutch to absorb unplanned shocks to the system. Otherwise there are no friction components, just gears and no shifting.
 
I thought a Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) *is* an automatic. It may not use a tc and have clutches instead but it shifts independent of driver in automatic mode, yes?
 
Saw that article. Looks like marketing-speak to me -- trying to spin everything so it seems to be in line with M values.

They did the same thing when they switched to turbocharged engines. They talked up the torque, the fact that the engine was lighter for a given power level, etc. Totally dropped their decades-long talk about throttle response, high RPMs, and torque curves that they had been insisting on for decades -- or just redirected it, saying they're better than other turbo engines instead of the best in the industry full-stop.

Now they're talking up shift speeds and technology, totally forgetting their decades-long talk about driver involvement. Weight is still part of the discussion, but they carefully dance around the fact that a manual would still be lighter than an automatic for a given power level, which was part of their argument for manuals for years.

All of that is chaff. In both cases, the real reason is very simple: turbos/automatics make the M division's power/cost/emissions/MPG/durability goals MUCH easier to hit, and they can optimize them just well enough that few of their customers care about what they're missing. No more, no less.

The industry as a whole has been driving this trend for years, and from a business perspective I can't blame them. As NA engines and manual transmissions dwindle in number, and as turbo engines and automatics improve, enthusiasts are caving in and buying turbos/autos -- which pushes demand for NA and manuals down even further, which lets the companies focus more on tech that's easier to develop.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
I thought a Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) *is* an automatic. It may not use a tc and have clutches instead but it shifts independent of driver in automatic mode, yes?

That's the way I see it. Anything with 2 pedals is an automatic; the rest is detail.

When they say "automatic," they mean TC autos. Or at least the style that's usually paired with a TC (Mercedes-AMG sometimes uses it with a clutch pack).
 
Not taking anything away from Koenigsegg, the Chaparral Cam Am race from 1967 used a torque converter automatic and the same technique to operate it. Pretty cool, and I give Koenigsegg credit for committing to it.
 
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Don't forget the planetary gearbox in the Prius. It acts like a CVT and only has a clutch to absorb unplanned shocks to the system. Otherwise there are no friction components, just gears and no shifting.


I love the simplicity of the Toyota, but it requires the hybrid drive train to achieve it....

well technically it can be done with hydraulics...

scan0004.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
I thought a Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) *is* an automatic. It may not use a tc and have clutches instead but it shifts independent of driver in automatic mode, yes?

That's the way I see it. Anything with 2 pedals is an automatic; the rest is detail.

When they say "automatic," they mean TC autos. Or at least the style that's usually paired with a TC (Mercedes-AMG sometimes uses it with a clutch pack).

It cannot be details.
dual clutch does not have TC, and I would not say that is "rest is in detail."
Problem of dual clutch is that it cannot sustain huge torque. If it can, gearbox is also very heavy. And maintenance is required (not problem for some people, for most it is).
I knew it that this will happen. When I drove DCT in M3 I immediately thought that next or two generations from F30 based M3, DCT is past. Reason is that ZF8 in BMW is so fast that it is ridiculous for TC transmission. That means that next gen. 3 series will have even faster TC transmission.
As for number of gears, few years ago BMW said that they will not go more then 8 since they do not see justifiable MPG increase. BUT, I am thinking they might do it, because average BMW driver here in the U.S. might want to have same number of gears as neighbor in MB or Lexus or whatever.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
It cannot be details.
dual clutch does not have TC, and I would not say that is "rest is in detail."


Aussies are finding that there's a big difference between a DCT that "automatically" changes gear, and a traditional automatic.

Reversing a heavy trailer on an SUV into a narrow (maybe steep) driveway, and your auto may get a little warm due to slip in the non contact torque converter...whichever of the clutches in a DCT is doing the slipping for that 5 or so minutes is getting it's friction faces glazed and burned.

The torque multiplation of a torque converter helps make THAT job easier too.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: edyvw
It cannot be details.
dual clutch does not have TC, and I would not say that is "rest is in detail."


Aussies are finding that there's a big difference between a DCT that "automatically" changes gear, and a traditional automatic.

Reversing a heavy trailer on an SUV into a narrow (maybe steep) driveway, and your auto may get a little warm due to slip in the non contact torque converter...whichever of the clutches in a DCT is doing the slipping for that 5 or so minutes is getting it's friction faces glazed and burned.

The torque multiplation of a torque converter helps make THAT job easier too.

Well yeah, that was my point. DCT, DSG etc. they have their role in cars like M3, but that is it. I had DSG in VW CC, great thing, but I did not haul with that car etc.
Again, considering how fast is ZF8 with BMW programming, this is not surprise.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
I thought a Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) *is* an automatic. It may not use a tc and have clutches instead but it shifts independent of driver in automatic mode, yes?

That's the way I see it. Anything with 2 pedals is an automatic; the rest is detail.

When they say "automatic," they mean TC autos. Or at least the style that's usually paired with a TC (Mercedes-AMG sometimes uses it with a clutch pack).

It cannot be details.
dual clutch does not have TC, and I would not say that is "rest is in detail."

I was only speaking with respect to the terminology. I.e., if a transmission only requires me to use 2 pedals, I consider it to be in the broad category of "automatic", which includes DCT, SMG, TC auto, etc.

My personal preference on that point isn't important to this conversation, though -- hence the line that followed in my post clarifying the terms being thrown around.
 
wemay: "So, why doesn’t BMW just use the U.S.-made transmissions that are clearly built with U.S. might and fortitude?"

What US made transmissions? Correct me if I am wrong but Tremec manual transmissions (used in most American high performance cars) are Mexican. Mustang manuals are German (Getrag). Maybe I missed something so educate me.
 
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