Almost crashed, feeling lucky

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: Superflan
Interesting reading. Never seen anything like this before, and I clearly recognize myself in the survival reactions mentioned. The more I grow old, the more I have fear.


Fear is healthy. Listen to it.


Riding in fear is terrible advice.

If you lack the riding ability to where you are constantly in fear, you either need to stop riding, or learn how to ride.

Once you have the skill to ride a bike and react instinctively with control and confidence to any situation that may arise, you no longer ride around in "Fear". You will be aware of your surroundings, and have respect for possible hazards (cars, gravel, cliff, whatever) but you won't be in "Fear" of them, because you will possess the ability and confidence to deal with them.

OP, here's the video version of that book I linked to in the PDF.

Yeah, there's some bad acting and subtitles, but it's still good advice.




Are you saying that I gave him the advice to "ride in fear"?

 

[Cujet]

As an "ex" racer, I cringe when I see people going relatively slow and losing control. I have to sit back and realize that not everybody really understands the capabilities (and actual limitations) of a motorcycle. Nor do people do the right thing when an unexpected situation arises.

To that end, I much prefer very capable motorcycles, as opposed to cruisers that reach cornering limits too early and/or are equipped with inferior tires/suspension. The combination adds risk, and limits options.

Here is what is possible with a good rider and equipment:

Please don't ride like that on the street, keep the speed reasonable and manage your risks properly! But remember, it's a really good idea to get some real training and experience near the limit. And it is also a good idea to ride capable machines. I'm not saying everyone needs a GSXR-1000. I am saying that cruisers impose limitations on what is possible. This guy can barely take a corner:

 

[gman2304]

'I'm not saying everyone needs a GSXR-1000. I am saying that cruisers impose limitations on what is possible.'

^ Nice comparison...

a 25 year old 120 lb pro rider on a factory works bike on a closed race course, and an idiot on a cruiser on a public road. Both are inherently dangerous. Thankfully, most riders are aware of their limitations and are somewhere in the middle.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
'I'm not saying everyone needs a GSXR-1000. I am saying that cruisers impose limitations on what is possible.'

^ Nice comparison...

a 25 year old 120 lb pro rider on a factory works bike on a closed race course, and an idiot on a cruiser on a public road. Both are inherently dangerous. Thankfully, most riders are aware of their limitations and are somewhere in the middle.



Yeah, a bit extreme..... However, I keep thinking about my neighbor. He was riding the Blue Ridge Parkway on his Harley, he was going just a bit faster than he could handle, and he did not initially lean enough to make the corner and when he did, his back tire came off the ground. He lost control, went over the edge and was severely injured. For NO REASON.

My neighbor was just like so many cruiser riders who lose control at modest speeds on well maintained roads.

 

[LoneRanger]

Or you can consider yourself a good rider of several years and many miles, have a whiz bang very capable Italian sport bike (see sig) with the latest in electronic safety aids like lean angle ABS and TC... and still bag it hard when you hit gravel and chaff in a curve.

 

[SlipperyPete]

As I learned the hard way, all the "whiz bang" in the world won't save you from riding too fast to react to hazards on public roads. It can surely help a lot, but you have to do your part when you aren't on a track.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Or you can consider yourself a good rider of several years and many miles, have a whiz bang very capable Italian sport bike (see sig) with the latest in electronic safety aids like lean angle ABS and TC... and still bag it hard when you hit gravel and chaff in a curve.

Exactly! I am a natural on a motorcycle, been riding since I was 7, racing since my early teens. Even so, I've had my share of "on the road" issues, and they have become more frequent in recent years.

Furthermore, as I age, I notice my reaction time is slower, and less accurate. Some days, I feel really slow to respond. That 25 year old in the picture above can do things I can't anymore....

 

[barryh]

For me the biggest potential danger is group riding. I much prefer to ride at my own pace than have it dictated by others.

 

[GregT]

Things I learned about cornering through the years

1) don't roll off the throttle if you do it changes the bike balance

2) don't hit your brakes you lose traction same as 1

3) push harder on the handlebars, the bike can do more than your mind thinks it can do

4) pray there is no sand


If you never heard of or don't understand counter steering, read up and practice, it can save your life..

 

[SlipperyPete]

I found a better plan is to leave a margin so you can brake or steer if you encounter sand. It doesn't have to be a huge margin, either.

 

[02SE]

Lots of riding on a dirtbike can make it so you're accustomed to losing traction at both tire contact patches, either one tire at a time, or in any combination of the two. Once you can react instinctively to losing traction unpredictably, and can immediately react appropriately, sand, gravel, whatever is just another condition to be dealt with and dismissed. Certainly not something to be praying in fear of.

I've spent the last three days riding with friends and family in a Recreation Area which is nothing but Sand. Losing traction constantly is what it's all about. The bike is always moving around under you.

Bottom line: If you have a fear of Sand, Gravel, etc. Get a dirtbike and put in lots of seat time. You'll be a better on-road rider for it.

 

[SlipperyPete]

So you can lose the front in sand or gravel in a curve and save it?

 

[02SE]

I've done it too many times too count over the years. There is almost always more grip in reserve, unless you're riding at the absolute limit of the tires grip, which no one is while on the street, unless they're foolish, and have no respect for the numerous unknown variables (car over the centerline in your lane, rocks, gravel, sand, Moose, Deer, etc.).

Tires can take a lot of load, if that load is applied AND released smoothly.

What typically gets people, is they haven't learned to apply or release load to a tire gradually, so when they get into a curve too hot or hit a slick spot (sand, gravel, ice, etc.) they panic and chop the throttle, and/or grab the brake. That sudden change in loading to the tire contact patch overloads the available grip, and down they go.

One thing all top Motorcycle Roadracers have in common is being smooth on the controls. They have to be smooth, because if they want to win, they have to be right on the limit of the tires available grip, be it during acceleration, cornering, or braking. Any sudden input that loads or unloads the tire will cause them and the bike to hit the deck.

Here's are some videos of a friend teaching his students how to be smooth with the brakes.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
There is almost always more grip in reserve, unless you're riding at the absolute limit of the tires grip, which no one is while on the street, unless they're foolish, and have no respect for the numerous unknown variables (car over the centerline in your lane, rocks, gravel, sand, Moose, Deer, etc.).


That is the crux of the matter. But you left out one catergory. Those of us who found their sense of self control overwhelmed by the sheer joy of riding at the edge of traction.

 

[02SE]

No, I mentioned the people that do that (at least on public roads), in the sentence you quoted. On the track I often push the limits of traction, and my ability.

Of course if you're pushing your or the bikes limits you will crash periodically. That's how you learn where your or the bikes limits are. Even the very best MotoGP riders still occasionally crash on track, because they are pushing the limits in order to win.

I've ridden with people that push their limits on public roads, without knowing what the conditions of the road are around the next blind turn, at that moment. They may have ridden a stretch of road for 20 years, and know every inch of pavement like the back of their hand, but they don't know what potential hazard is around the next blind bend at that moment. I've seen that attitude catch them out more than once. Which ruins the ride, because then I or others have to stop and render aid.

I've noticed that the most aggressive guys on the street, are never the fastest guys when you get them on the track. On the street they were just naively willing to risk more. On the track where the only limitation is tire traction and ability, they learn that they have a lot to learn. More often than not they realize their lack of ability, and want to improve their riding ability.

The guys in all of my friends riding classes, all thought they were fast on the street, until they realized they had a lot to learn.

 

[gman2304]

http://www.cyclenews.com/2014/08/article/don-tilley-dies-in-accident/

Don Tilley was killed in 2014 on the Blue Ridge Parkway while riding with a group at a speed of 45 mph. His wife Robinette was critically injured and has been a paraplegic since that terrible accident. It was determined that Don did not have a seizure or heart attack and no other vehicle was involved in the crash. Don owned 2 Harley dealerships in NC for decades, and was a famous dirt track and drag racer for Harley for decades as well. I haven't heard anyone say how or what happened that day, but motorcycles are dangerous no matter how much experience or skill the rider has.

 

[02SE]

They absolutely are dangerous. That's why I stress to people the importance of continually striving to become a better rider through advanced training and even racing, if they really want to improve.

David Jefferies was a highly skilled and experienced racer whom I admired greatly, because despite being a similar build to me (non-jockey stature), he was still the fastest at the IOM TT. Until he died during practice for the TT in 2003. He gave me inspiration that I could possibly be fast around the Mountain Course.

Joey Dunlop was someone whom I admired greatly. He had quite the record in racing, he died in a race in Estonia in 2000.

Wayne Rainey who is a multiple champion in Grand Prix racing, and whom I've had the pleasure of talking to on several occasions, is paralyzed due to a racing crash.

Bottom line: If you're going to ride, be the best you possibly can be. But know that there are no guarantees.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
I've done it too many times too count over the years. There is almost always more grip in reserve, unless you're riding at the absolute limit of the tires grip, which no one is while on the street, unless they're foolish, and have no respect for the numerous unknown variables (car over the centerline in your lane, rocks, gravel, sand, Moose, Deer, etc.).

Tires can take a lot of load, if that load is applied AND released smoothly.

What typically gets people, is they haven't learned to apply or release load to a tire gradually, so when they get into a curve too hot or hit a slick spot (sand, gravel, ice, etc.) they panic and chop the throttle, and/or grab the brake. That sudden change in loading to the tire contact patch overloads the available grip, and down they go.

One thing all top Motorcycle Roadracers have in common is being smooth on the controls. They have to be smooth, because if they want to win, they have to be right on the limit of the tires available grip, be it during acceleration, cornering, or braking. Any sudden input that loads or unloads the tire will cause them and the bike to hit the deck.

Here's are some videos of a friend teaching his students how to be smooth with the brakes.








Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing here, I was trying to confirm whether not you were describing a situation where you have the bike leaned over in a curve and the front tire slides out from under the bike in gravel or sand. Are you saying you can not only react in the, what, .2 seconds before you hit the ground, but also perform some action to cause the tire to regain traction? I don't mean when the tire is skipping and hooking back up on gravel; I mean when the front tire slides completely out from under you.

 

[02SE]

I've had the front tire wash out, and regain grip by shifting weight away from the front tire either through releasing the front brake lever, applying more throttle, or moving body weight back in the seat. Or all three or a combination thereof. Even putting weight on the knee slider has worked while on a road course.

I'm certainly not claiming to be Rossi. But I have been riding since the age of 6, with a fair amount of motocross and road course racing experience. Plenty of crashes too. But from all that, I've gained some insight in how to keep from crashing every time the bike slides unexpectedly.

 

[Superflan]

Update:

I wanna thank everyone that contributed to this thread.
Reading all your insights made me aware of many facts.
Finishing the Keith Code book opened my mind on the fact that the last 2 years I've been going wrong a ride after another, putting in more and more Survival Reactions I didn't have when I was 18 yo

I'm 30, and since I ever got the right to drive a motorcycle on road, I've always had bikes. And for all my life until year 2010, it also was my main (if only) transportation mean.

I looked deep in my mind. I had major depression (wasn't really aware of it before) from years (signs began when I was 5 yo) I kept ignoring, trying to subside it every day. But turning into adult life more and more, sometimes you can't always do what you need to keep up subsiding depression.

So, speaking of riding, as I now went through therapy (I'm still in), I got a brand new feeling of my abilities, and gained awareness, control and precision when riding.

Aaah, relieving somehow